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Education / Re: ASUU: Why We Haven't Called Off Strike by cgift(m): 9:16am On Oct 27, 2020
popweezy:
ASUU PLS DONT CALL OFF THE STRIKE O.. We have therefore forgotten about school and started hustling... School will just be another factor hindering our hustle...

Tainkyuu

This is funny and at the same time not funny. School is overrated abi ?

1 Like

Crime / Re: Police Kill 5 Looters In Ikotun, Arrest Scores by cgift(m): 5:52pm On Oct 23, 2020
Angelfrost:
I support this fully!!!... Kill every last one of them!!! Bunch of bastards making a mess of our peaceful drive to national liberation!!!

Shoot at sight!!! Idiots that want to reap where they did not sow!!! Mtchewww.

We need massive re-orientation in this country apparently. We blame lack of this emotional intelligence on our poorly funded schools with cyllabus of the 19th century.

Your comment is extremist. Not good for a society. Apprehend them and prosecute them. Evidence about so the case will be a walk over at the courts.

We all truly need a mind change
Crime / Re: Police Kill 5 Looters In Ikotun, Arrest Scores by cgift(m): 5:48pm On Oct 23, 2020
Openbusiness:
This is exactly the EXTRAJUDICIAL killings we are talking about. If looting is a capital offense that warrants shooting to kill at sight, then why didn't they shoot at those bloody criminal looters in Abuja and all the States in this country looting billions from the public treasury? Are they not supposed to be arrested and charged to Court? The LASG judicial panel needs to arrest the officers behind this killings, otherwise they will continue killing people anyhow and whenever they like.

Well said!

Our forces are still trying to learn how walk professionally. Massive reforms needed there, its not just salary increment. Mind and spirit works, then finance aids will ultimately make our police what it should be

1 Like

Crime / Re: Police Kill 5 Looters In Ikotun, Arrest Scores by cgift(m): 5:45pm On Oct 23, 2020
eburuu:
I swear to god it happen in my area...they pack slot item...expensive phones

I hope to God that SLOT and other shopowners track the phones down. Skip tracing will reveal the thief along the line. The effort will be worth it as such people need be taken off the street. Anyone that can break into a shop violently needs be taken off the streets because they are potential thieves and if they see a gun, will transpose into Amred Robbers without a doubt.
Properties / Re: Which Is Better: Mowe Or Ibeju Lekki by cgift(m): 3:44pm On Oct 22, 2020
oyezsenior:
hope this man listened to your advise. This is 9years after and Mowe instead of developing, it's getting worst

i hope so too parley
Properties / Re: Which Is Better: Mowe Or Ibeju Lekki by cgift(m): 3:43pm On Oct 22, 2020
enchilada:
11 years later. Ibeji lekki has a refinery. What else? I can't see no Seaport, Airport, the 4 major roads etc

Infrastructure takes time. But let us be honest, you cannot compare the two. i said that 12 years ago. Here we are today. The two cannot compare. My clients who invested in Mowe land still dey there... Yes, it has grown, but to be honest, you cannot compare the joy to what is happening at Ibeju. Ibeju is so better organised and a clear line of vision from the LASG for that place.

You downplay Refinery? Hmm. That would be a big mistake. I know what is coming. The predictions actualising might be a slow grind, but it will come. smiley The refinery is even the small part.. the industrialisation of that place is even more interesting. And with such industrialisation would be the need reacreation (I will allow your educated mind to ponder on the full extent of what that could mean economically) ...

I won't bore you with details, but I still dare you to invest in Ibeju.

Many thanks,
Business / Re: Start A Haulage Business With Renault Trucks And Make Good Money. by cgift(m): 6:06pm On Aug 20, 2020
Are you still with Renault Trucks ?
Business / Re: How Can I Start A Haulage Service Business In Nigeria by cgift(m): 6:05pm On Aug 20, 2020
Would be nice to know if this eventually kicked off
Politics / Re: Ize-Iyamu Acid: Oshiomhole Must Have Mistaken Me For Another Dean – Sagay by cgift(m): 9:26am On Jul 22, 2020
donproject:


Human beings only care to make the world a better place for themselves alone. They don't believe that the best road user is the one that treads and leaves the path finer, more appealing to tread by in-coming road users.

Every human is born innately with chauvinistic traits, we tend to posses forces that only attract the best things in life towards us, leaving the others to deal with bollocks left behind, that is how we calibrate.

Interesting view point. And more interesting however is the fact that we seem to generally know that what we do is often wrong and there is a better way, but we still go ahead to choose the wrong anyways. We know better, but cannot do better. Heck! Most times, we don't even try to do better!

Our values; what has shaped them overtime ? Our minds, which is our power force has been corrupted growing up and with society inundating us with things that constantly fight with our good values, the good in us seem to be drowned or worst still, eventually exterminated.

But there is that still small voice... It states that godliness with contentment is great gain. It tells us that a man's life does not consist in the abundance of things he possesses. That we can be successful without being materialistic. We can listen to that voice, and refuse to join the bandwagons of do-no-gooders and stand out by making a difference and restating the age old values that defines success differently from what modern society tries to call it. Success is not money. Contentment with one's self, a correct view of one's self-worth and putting others first is the law of the preservationist! That is success!

Our orientation agencies are non-existent. This task starts with them and must be national in approach and reach. We must however do the little in our spheres of influence to make the world a better place... Michael Jackson's song ''Heal The World" comes to mind.
Politics / Re: Ize-Iyamu Acid: Oshiomhole Must Have Mistaken Me For Another Dean – Sagay by cgift(m): 10:02am On Jul 16, 2020
donproject:
The truth of the matter is if you ask this professor a million times, he will say he could not remember a thing.

But the truth behind this issue is that Oshiomole was right that Sagay was part of the committee that investigated Ize-Iyamu for the offence, Sagay also remembers vividly every detail of the incident.

This is what actually happened. When Oshiomole made this allegation against Ize-Iyamu 4 years ago, nobody actually pressured this professor to verify the truthfulness of the claim, even if there were calls to really look into the matter, there is every probability that Sagay would confirm the credibility of the claim. Now that Ize-Iyamu has switched allegiance, going to a party where he was actually alleged, everyone knows that the other party will see this allegation by Oshiomole as a free kick willingly giving to them by the opposing team, only if they know how to score directly.

Oshiomole and his cohorts having known that they have already shot themselves in the leg long ago will try and change the face of the story. They contacted professor Sagay to neither confirm nor deny this allegation, and that is why he said may be Oshiomole made mistake by mentioning his name.

Now, the smackdown. If Oshiomole is asked if he was actually referring to Sagay as the then Dean of the faculty, he will say he guess he was wrong. They will ask him who was then the dean, Oshiomole will only say he cannot actually remember and was not even sure if Ize-Iyamu was involved in the crime, he will claim there was a mix-up somewhere. Gbam! Case closed.

I guess Edo people should just work together to defeat federal might this time. Not sure anyone could have been able to consistently please the powers that be. I never expected Oshibaba to turn around to become the burden on a sitting governor, something he himself faced at a time and chanted hallelujah when the defeated the then powers-that-be.

Humans should just try to make the world a better place, but we generally cannot not, can we ?
Investment / Re: This Nairaland Rule Is Uninformed And Shows Lack Of Understanding Of New Trends by cgift(m): 4:38pm On Feb 16, 2020
Do you know what portion of the $180 billion was shared with ordinary people like you and I that have taken on the business of entrepreneurship in Network Marketing ?

Just google a bit. About 40% of that came to their individual partners as income!

Do you know which companies in the world have turned to NM/MLM to distribute their goods as against the Traditional Model ?

Just google a bit whether you will see global companies there..

Ultimately, your very well known companies today will start using Network Marketing. It is very clear that traditional marketing where only some people win, the corporates, will fizzle out and move to a system where everybody wins! Did i just give some business person a clue? O yes! A sustainable business system is where everybody wins.

I partner with one company that is in 183 countries of the world and has been around for about four (4) decades.

Care to learn more ?

Please free the mind. Be ready to learn, unlearn and relearn.

Shalom

1 Like

Investment / Re: This Nairaland Rule Is Uninformed And Shows Lack Of Understanding Of New Trends by cgift(m): 4:25pm On Feb 16, 2020
Smatkid541:

what do you know in money doubling scheme.
So MLM is now money doubling scheme. Seriously the way people misunderstand something is seriously embarrassing.

You can't blame them. If someone has fallen into the hands of greedy people who were out to fleece the unsuspecting populace, that is how they will naturally feel. Sadly, the bad ones have scourged the good ones already and made it more difficult for the good ones to thrive. Now the good ones have to put in 10 times as much energy to meet their own genuine goals. They first will have to topple the bad image created, and you know how the mind works.

Anyone who has any kind of doubt about genuine MLM programs should take solace in the fact that for there to be bad ones out there, then there must be good ones. What efforts have you made to search out the good ones? Better put, why has something not aroused your curiosity about understanding the basis for the industry to start with.

My speciality is Network Marketing, a.k.a. Direct Selling, or MLM. There are some nuanced differences but we often use them freely and interchangeably.

Change is coming to the way companies do business. When you twist some of the P's in the traditional marketing mix, then you begin to appreciate the birth / basis / need for Network Marketing/MLM. We all learnt the 4 P's of Marketing right ? May be I am old school and there are more P's. But the glory of marketing as we know it traditionally (M-W-R-C) is dimming. A new wave which creates a win-win situation for all stakeholders is taking the traditional space.

I was particularly displeased at that blanket rule that is founded on gross misinformation. If NL wants to have some credibility and be taken seriously as an information powerhouse, it must stay on the side that adds to constructive debates and education of its readers. Not the other side.

Care to learn more ?

Please free the mind. Be ready to learn, unlearn and relearn.

Shalom

1 Like

Investment / Re: This Nairaland Rule Is Uninformed And Shows Lack Of Understanding Of New Trends by cgift(m): 2:36pm On Feb 15, 2020
SavageResponse:


You're on you own.

I stand with Nairaland on this!

If you're not happy with the rule create your own forum and allow MLM and all the other nonsense on it!

Why would you want to be party to falsehood. What is the use of education if not to learn, unlearn, and relearn ? If you have a forum that is public, then your utmost goal should be about correctly educating your readers and not in helping to spread false narratives.

Let me ask you, which industry do you think makes the most money today and which of them do you think made the most millionaires in the last decade?

Forget the stereotypes, open up.

Be ready to learn..
Investment / This Nairaland Rule Is Uninformed And Shows Lack Of Understanding Of New Trends by cgift(m): 10:19pm On Feb 13, 2020
Hello house,

Rule No. 16. of posting on the forum states: Don't promote shady investments like betting, HYIP, MLM, FOREX, binary options, and cryptocurrencies on Nairaland.

You don't abuse something just because you don't understand it. Thats the reason they usually say when purpose is not known, abuse is inevitable.

i am sure of at least two groups that should not even be in that ballpack or in any category called "shady". They are MLM and FOREX. Some will even argue some select crytocurrencies. The former two are however can be very explanatory and legit. Not all things appearing as MLM are actually MLM. Ponzis schemes are not MLM. In the Network Marketing profession for example, there are rules for identifying which company is legit and otherwise. the only problem is amateurs and ignoramuses just jump onto the band wagon without any form of education and when scammed, they brand all MLM companies are frauds when they themselves in actual fact are to blame.

We can have loads of discussion particularly on Network Marketing (MLM) just to educate those who need it. For starters, Rule number 16 needs be edited. there is no growth without learning.

Who's with me ?

Shalom

1 Like 1 Share

Education / Re: Pictures Only Medical Students Can Relate To by cgift(m): 11:37am On Jan 07, 2017
Truth is after watching Grey's Anatomy and the first 2 seasons of House MD starred by Hughes, i tarted asking myself, could i have found it easy if i had studied medicine like i did with my Computer Science & Technology ? Its hyper being a Doctor o. But i bet, its not much fun studying medicine in Nigeria like it would have been in Say a good school in the U.S...just my opinion though

2 Likes

Car Talk / Re: Has A Kid Ever Scratched Your Car? Like Written A, B. C... by cgift(m): 12:15pm On Nov 02, 2012
Is there something like a scratch resistant paint for cars? This is really a menace
Politics / Re: John Fashanu Appears As Character Witness In Ibori's Sentencing by cgift(m): 4:54pm On Apr 18, 2012
Humphreydis: fash is a bas.tard!...mk im help im Oga Ibori serve part of im jail term na...wat has building stadium got 2 wit corruption..Ewu!...IBORI d self acclaimed ODIDIGBORIGBO(meanin u dey look am he dey go) 1 of delta state,see he ended his thievin journey....Fash beta dnt cm back 2 naija o,find anoda country waka lost...

grin

you people wont kill me with laughter on N'Land. Wetin you go do if the guy show for Lagos? D guy security details go beat shege for ur body. No go try urself o.
Crime / Re: Blessing Effiong Has Been In Detention For 4 Years Over Phone Theft by cgift(m): 10:46am On Apr 16, 2012
i am sure even the relatvies may not even know where she is or that she is probably dead or something. What a pity.

1 Like

TV/Movies / Re: A Game Of Thrones, New Series On Hbo/sky Atlantic by cgift(m): 8:22pm On Apr 10, 2012
How many episodes does Season 1 have?
Romance / Re: Can I show her this thread?: In Love With A Young Single Mother.. by cgift(m): 12:25pm On Apr 10, 2012
But what about the option of convincing her to let go of the child and only visit once in a long while thereby absorbing herself completely of her motherly responsibilities? ME thinks that would work. So, the child remains with the in-laws if they want it, and she can focus and move on.
Religion / Re: Catholic Purgatory: An Absolute Insult To Jesus Christ! by cgift(m): 9:06am On Apr 04, 2012
chukwudi44: If I were to answer using my own opinion yes a soul will have the freewill to choose not to be saved but that soul will have to head to hell as purgatory is only a temporary place of abode.The probability of any such occurrence is zero

You are getting closer to my questions in alluding to the transient nature of this purgatory. What determines the length of stay? Could you please answer my other questions? You are being dishonest by throwing questions back at me in place of my own questions. That is not a fair way to debate. I had asked you some salient questions and you refused to answer saying you will only answer if I answer yours. Haba!! Chukwudi!! Na so e go be?

All right, let us come back home. I will open a thread for those my questions like I said before in order not to derail this one.

The issue we are discussing again is the existence of purgatory. Chukwudi, if I may ask, would you be fine if we delve into its origins in the catholic church, the position of the Holy Fathers on it and some other issues.

The essence is to establish the fact that Purgatory was never at the inception of the establishment of the catholic church and was only made a dogma centuries after due to some numerous factors which I will like to delve into in a short while. If it was not accepted as a dogma until much later years, that speaks much of the fallacy of the so-called Church traditions that were handed down through the time of Peter which you people claim. I will show you that it was a doctrine that arose at some time in the involvement of the RCC to satisfy some carnal desires other than actual piety.

In actual fact,I have on good authority from some of the writings of critical Church Father whom you adore so much and their inconsistencies on this doctrine and how they all all differed on the doctrine of Purgatory and other doctrines of the RCC. These are the same Fathers you accepted as the authority on the interpretation of the scriptures who have also instituted that no body is allowed personal interpretation of the scriptures except the one that has been interpreted by the Church Fathers. IF the church Fathers never agreed on the principle of Doctrines themselves, how do you place your own belief?

You have caved yourself into accepting a bare-faced lie that you cannot read, understand and believe interpretations that are contrary to the ones of the Church Fathers (who were men like yourself) despite their inconsistencies and oft disagreements with one another and have therefore stifled the opportunity for an accurate understanding of the scriptures. And you say you are fine with that?

See you in a while.
Religion / Re: Catholic Purgatory: An Absolute Insult To Jesus Christ! by cgift(m): 9:05am On Apr 04, 2012
chukwudi44: If I were to answer using my own opinion yes a soul will have the freewill to choose not to be saved but that soul will have to head to hell as purgatory is only a temporary place of abode.The probability of any such occurrence is zero

You are getting closer to my questions in alluding to the transient nature of this purgatory. What determines the length of stay? Could you please answer my other questions? You are being dishonest by throwing questions back at me in place of my own questions. That is not a fair way to debate. I had asked you some salient questions and you refused to answer saying you will only answer if I answer yours. Haba!! Chukwudi!! Na so e go be?

All right, let us come back home. I will open a thread for those my questions like I said before in order not to derail this one.

The issue we are discussing again is the existence of purgatory. Chukwudi, if I may ask, would you be fine if we delve into its origins in the catholic church, the position of the Holy Fathers on it and some other issues.

The essence is to establish the fact that Purgatory was never at the inception of the establishment of the catholic church and was only made a dogma centuries after due to some numerous factors which I will like to delve into in a short while. If it was not accepted as a dogma until much later years, that speaks much of the fallacy of the so-called Church traditions that were handed down through the time of Peter which you people claim. I will show you that it was a doctrine that arose at some time in the involvement of the RCC to satisfy some carnal desires other than actual piety.

In actual fact,I have on good authority from some of the writings of critical Church Father whom you adore so much and their inconsistencies on this doctrine and how they all all differed on the doctrine of Purgatory and other doctrines of the RCC. These are the same Fathers you accepted as the authority on the interpretation of the scriptures who have also instituted that no body is allowed personal interpretation of the scriptures except the one that has been interpreted by the Church Fathers. IF the church Fathers never agreed on the principle of Doctrines themselves, how do you place your own belief?

You have caved yourself into accepting a bare-faced lie that you cannot read, understand and believe interpretations that are contrary to the ones of the Church Fathers (who were men like yourself) despite their inconsistencies and oft disagreements with one another and have therefore stifled the opportunity for an accurate understanding of the scriptures. And you say you are fine with that?

See you in a while.
Religion / Re: Catholic Purgatory: An Absolute Insult To Jesus Christ! by cgift(m): 8:18pm On Apr 03, 2012
Pastor AIO:

Abeg where did I spew anger? Or did your 'holy' spirit help you to interpret my words as anger, the same way that he has been helping you to interpret the bible to understand that people are baptised in order to replace those that are dead? As the ghetto youth would say over here, 'you're giving me bare laughs bruv, bare laughs'.

Did you strike a nerve?

Yes indeed, the nerve that is directly connected to my laughter muscles.

Commot dia! grin I was not asking you if i struck a nerve? It was the other poster that warned me not to go there. What are you feeling like? grin

Back to Chuks,

I think by now, i can confidently rechristen you Mr Evader. cool For the umpteenth time, you have evaded my questions. You seem set in your ways, (perhaps, we all are) as all the evidences we gave you, you refused to accept them without given us biblical counters. What will I do with you now?

You said you know the game I am playing? What game? Well, I could second-guess, perhaps using the analogy that if a house has shaky foundations, you can be rest assured that the building put on it as well will be built with same quality of shakiness.

Anyway, we are in the discussion of Purgatory and I do not see why my my questions are out of place. If we are discussing validity of existence and I go by extension to the mode of operation, have I stretched it too far? I don't think so. My questions still remain prolly for another thread (if you wish) but tomorrow morning I will resume with you. I need to go home to my sildren smiley

Goodnight or good day.

Deep Sight:
^ Let me answer that last question for him. But my own perspective.

The answer is Yes.

Thanks jere Deepsight. You ansad correctly. cool
Religion / Re: Catholic Purgatory: An Absolute Insult To Jesus Christ! by cgift(m): 6:49pm On Apr 03, 2012
Pastor AIO:

I thought they were dumb questions too, but then on closer inspection I realised his reason for asking those questions.

I think that in law they say that if you can show a motive for the accused then that strengthens your case against the accused. For instance if someone is to gain by inheriting a dead man's property then that strengthens the case that says he is the murderer of the dead man.

Similarly, if you can show that Purgatory (or any doctrine of a continued evolution of the soul after death) will lead to exploitation manipulations, and outright thieving then Voila!, you have the entire raison d'etre of the doctrine.

The only problem with this is that if such reasoning is applied to the entirety of christianity, or the entirety of organised religion, but most especially christianity, then we have no choice but to conclude that the entire edifice is deviced precisely for the exploitation of humans and that there is no truth in it at all. The history of the ways christianity has been applied even up to the present day will serve as evidence against it.

It is a weak way to argue. It is like saying that if a rich man dies then all his heirs must be charged for murder.

But such thinking is not untypical of africans. In Oyo, back in the day, if the Alafin dies then his Aremo (crowned prince) must also die with him. This was done to prevent regicide. I couldn't help but think how idiotic this is when I first heard it.

What about the 2nd son? He could kill the father in the knowledge that his elder brother will go to the grave with him and he would become Alafin. Anyway . . .

AIO, you! In an instance you play a middle man's role and in another you spew anger wink Let me leave you for now.

italo: With all respect, cgift, I think you too mature for this kind of questions you're asking.

They have no bearing on deducing the supposed existence or non existence of purgatory.

1. How long will judgement last? Seconds, minutes, hours, days?
2. Will we be seated, standing or prostrate during judgement?

Can you answer these questions? Do they make sense? Do they do anything to prove wether there'll be Judgement or not?

Let not go down that line pls...

Did I strike a nerve?

You might wonder, why I ask such questions, some seemingly funny. When a doctrine is not based on sound biblical doctrines, be rest assured that its proponents will hold onto straws to defend it. More importantly, because it is not based on biblical evidence order than mere allusions and conjectures and reading your own meanings into it to suite a pre-determined end, the modus-operandi of it will be fraught with so much errors, fallacies, heresies and inconsistencies that will also never make any sense or justify good reasoning when the search light of God's Words is beamed on it.

Back to chuks,

Seems you are not ready to discuss as you are replacing my questions with another questions and making it cyclical. I do not think that is how I have handled your questions. I do not replace your questions with my own questions making my response contingent on your first responding to mine. I think it will not be fair using that style for me. Every question has an answer and if you decide to use boldface to put down my questions, then intelligent readers will see what you are doing for what it is: "evading questions". And you have demonstrated that overtime in the short time I joined in on this discussion. For emphasis, all questions deserve answers even if it is a simplistic Yes or No or DON'T KNOW. Ok?

My questions one after the other again:

1. How long do you stay in purgatory? days, months, years?

If you do not know, you could have simply said, you are not sure. But I believe that deep down within you, you know according to those catholic traditions handed down through the papal years that there are a number of activities that determines the length of stay in purgatory. For the sake of transparency and honesty, I would want you to still attempt the question. It is a compulsory question and not optional grin

2. How many masses do the priests have to say before the soul gets cleansed?

Is this not a very simple question? 12? 120? 1200? or 12000?

3. How much do the penitents pay for the masses to be conducted for the souls in purgatory? What are Mass Cards and how do they affect length of stay in Purgatory ?

May be better put, what impact in terms of length of stay and others does the purchase of Mass Cards, or the payments by penitents to the priests through the Bishops have on the souls in purgatory?

4. Is purgatory a place where the will of the dead is functional and can therefore decide he does not want the cleansing? Or the will of that soul is quenched in purgatory and cannot therefore make a decision for itself? I again ask, where is the God of freewill in all of this?

You tried to feebly kill this question by asking if Jonathan can have the will to resign the presidency. But if I may comment on that; the answer is yes. He does have the will and can exercise the will. But if I could correctly imply that your answer means NO (i.e., that there is no will once in purgatory) It then makes me further enquire:

If I do not want to go to heaven, why must I be forced against my wish to be "purged" by the flames of purgatory?

Brother, I dare use another question to replace the original 5th question:

5. When was the doctrine of purgatory made a dogma in the RCC?


You know what, while you answer these questions, let me come back to your own question:



What becomes the fate of those whose sins do not lead to death. Would there still make it to heaven even in that state of sin


Now, it becomes very lucid that your concept of sin is wrong. I think this is unfortunately one (1) of the few reasons why the catholic church fathers have brought in the middle place so called to justify a so-called cleansing of "seeming imperfections" they think would plague and deny Christians entry into heaven despite the finished work of Christ on the cross and their acceptance in His work on the cross.

The crux of the matter is the concept of sin held by the RCC and I think, we need to open another thread on this and discuss the concept of Sin.

But for the meantime, do answer my questions.
Religion / Re: When Husband And Wife Practise Different Religions! by cgift(m): 10:59am On Apr 03, 2012
I Cor. 7 : 12 - 16 says:

12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.

13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.

14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?


They can both marry but there might be two extremes in the relationship.

The above referenced in the text in 1 Cor. is for the religious ones (either husband or wife is very religious). The second one is where both of them are not even religious and are very liberal with their faiths. For the latter, it is usually a non-issue whether the husband is Muslim and the wife is Buddhist provided they are both liberal. For the religious ones, it now depends on mutual understanding both based on the word of God as admonished by Paul in Corinthians and also within themselves, the level of maturity they have attained within themselves to sustain such divisions in their marriage. If a born-again Christian marries a religious Muslim, whilst, I would not encourage her to observe his ablutions in the mode of Islam, I would expect her to wake him in the morning for him to observe his prayers, even lay his mat, give him prayer points, seek for common grounds of understanding in both religions and discuss them. All these she must do while praying for to God to have him saved. But she must love him with all of her heart. Now this should be vice versa. The man must encourage her to fast and pray, give her prayer points, whilst also praying that she gets converted someday with love.

Una see say the thing get as e be. The maturity then comes in the area of deciding which school, church, etc the children should go. Forget that lie that it is the parent that decides the paradise of the kids. Its all hogwash! They are all independent souls and are responsible for their own decisions. Such doctrines for instance implies, it is better for all religious Muslims to marry Muslims and never an "infidel". Its therefore a complex thing and is better avoided if you are deeply religious.
Religion / Re: Catholic Purgatory: An Absolute Insult To Jesus Christ! by cgift(m): 9:09am On Apr 03, 2012
chukwudi44:

You are just assuming that passage only to those who lived during the time of noah but [b]1 pet 4:4-6
tells us the reason why the good news was preached to the dead [/b]in 3:19 no where did it suggest it only applied to those who lived while noah was building the ark.


Chuks my guy,

Thanks for your response. I am pleased you are sustaining the momentum but we must put thins in proper perspective and not take things out of context. I am sure Berni took time out to explain 1 Peter 4 : 4-6 in earlier discourse. If I remember, she took time to explain how the verses in 4- 6 cannot be taken out of the context and tied to what was being discussed in Chapter 3 about the issue of the prison. Why take us back again?

Briefly, running through

1 Peter 4:

3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:

4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:

5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.


In bible studies, you get a better clue as per what is being discussed when you look at the preceding verses before the verse of interest. The Bible describes us as DEAD in our sins (see Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasseswink

The dead being referred to therefore implies those who who dead to the Life and Love of God and are walking in sin desribed in many words as "lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries" in 1 Pet. 4 above.

It does not have any connections to your assertions about the prisons.



One more thing the fact that some people doubt the existence of purgatory does not mean it does not exist.I would also like you to explain 1 cor 15:29 and 1 John 5:16-17

You are right in saying that the fact people do not believe in it does not stop it from existing? Very correct and that is why we are having this discourse but a great deal of burden relies on you to convince your audience and even perhaps yourself in so doing on the truthfulness of some doctrines which we hold dearly unto but with very shaky foundations.

Would something that serious and important in the overall salvation of a man and transition from this earthly realm to the kingdom of God be left to such ambiguities and whimsical interpretations of men relying on mere allusions as against real substance from the Word of God? I do not think so.

I Cor. 15:29

Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?


The context of this passage is one in which Paul is arguing on behalf of the doctrine of the bodily resurrection.Throughout this chapter, Paul gives one argument after another showing that Christians legitimately believe in a resurrection.

Now his argument takes a new turn. This new turn is introduced in verse 29, but that is not a stand-alone verse. It must be read in its context.

Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them? 30 Why are we also in danger every hour? 31 [/b]I protest, brethren, by the boasting in you, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. [b]32 If from human motives I fought with wild beasts at Ephesus, what does it profit me? If the dead are not raised, let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die. (1 Corinthians 15:29-32).

We notice immediately that this verse appears in a context of suffering. There is are the following elements described:

* Danger (15:30)
* Dying (15:21)
* Fighting wild beasts (15:32).

This is the language of persecution and martyrdom.


Here is the question. If there is no bodily resurrection, then why should I risk my life by holding onto my Christian faith? In Paul’s day, it was not healthy to be a Christian. Paul himself had suffered many things for the cause of Christ. He had been beaten with rods, stoned, lashed and thrown into prison. He had come through hunger, thirst, exposure and sickness.

Now comes the question. Why is Paul doing this if there is no bodily resurrection when the only reason he is being persecuted is because he said that a certain dead Galilean got up and walked?

It is in this context that Paul asks, "What will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?" You may be correct linguistically if you say one is baptised in place of another dead person, but miss the point that the passage is written in a context of persecution and martyrdom. Again, there is no where this alludes to purgatory. That needs a reaffirmation i believe.

Here is the question that Paul asks. Why do believers who are under persecution continue to hold to their faith in a resurrection that results in their being persecuted if there is no resurrection? And why do new converts rise up to be baptized [b]to replace [/b]those who are being put to death if there is no resurrection of the dead? Why are new believers being baptized and filling up the ranks of the church in place of those who have died if there is no resurrection when it results in being in danger every hour and in daily danger of death ("I die daily"wink?

If Paul were to be thrown to the lions in the great stadium in Ephesus because of his stand for Christ, that would be of great benefit. But that is only true if there is a resurrection from the dead. If there is no resurrection of the dead, then it is silly for Paul to risk his life.

If there is no resurrection from the dead, then we have followed a lie. If this is the case, then we are not doing God’s will, but only the will of another group of men. If I am martyred only on the basis of some misguided men, what does it profit me?

The good news is that Christ HAS risen from the dead. And that is why people continue to believe in Him, filling up the ranks of those who have gone before us. And that is why YOU have been baptized in place of the dead.

Thus, the picture of being baptized in place of the dead is a picture of new converts coming to Christ and being baptized to replace those who have died in Christ.

I tell you, there is so much propensity to commit massive error when you take the bible in one verse and try to make it work in corroborating another verse which in actual sense the correlation coefficient may be zero or negative. smiley


1 John 5:16-17


16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.


Now, I would not waste much time on this as it essentially declares that there are sins that leads to death and there are those that do not lead unto death. It is very explicit and I do not want us to delve into that as not to even sway us away from the main issue at hand.


Pastor AIO: What commandment of God is transgressed by the doctrine of Purgatory? Purgatory is not something that you practice in contradiction to God's commandment. Or is praying for the departed a transgression of God's law.


The simple law you are violating is that of adding to the word of God what is not there as Berni rightly quoted from the book of Revelations concerning the plight of those who add to the Word of God what is not there.

Colossians 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.


The above is the danger you run with traditions of men not rooted in the sacred scriptures.

See again:

# 2 Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.




I thought real_berni's beef was that there is no scriptural foundation for purgatory.

Yes. And it is mine beef as well.


By the way, you haven't even addressed the source of the doctrine of Holy Trinity. It has been brought up again and again on this thread and I am ready to bet my last pant that you will not address it. How biblical is the Holy Trinity?


I cannot remember me discussing Trinity with you. May be with prior discussants. It is not mentioned anywhere in the scriptures and no Protestant Pastor worth his salt teaches the doctrine of the trinity. If you are saying that what Jesus said concerning his relationship with his Father that they are One, and coin that to mean the trinity, good luck. It is however, not a doctrine. Mind you, I cannot explain their relationship so do not ask me. The Bible calls it a mystery here

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.


Back to Chukwudi who has decided to start cherry-picking my questions,

I will bring them out again to the fore and also add more pertinent questions:

1. How long do you stay in purgatory? days, months, years?
2. How many masses do the priests have to say before the soul gets cleansed?
3. How much do the penitents pay for the masses to be conducted for the souls in purgatory?
4. Is purgatory a place where the will of the dead is functional and can therefore decide he does not want the cleansing? Or the will of that soul is quenched in purgatory and cannot therefore make a decision for itself? I again ask, where is the God of freewill in all of this?
5. Are there flames in Purgatory? If so, what are the similarities between the lake of fire (what people call Hell today) and the flames of purgatory?



We are getting into the heart of the matter as I will like to further show you how manipulations, twists, and interpretations for personal gains and outright misunderstanding and misapplication of the scriptures is what underlies the concept of Purgatory and many other false doctrines.

Lets discuss this further.

1 Like

Religion / Re: Catholic Purgatory: An Absolute Insult To Jesus Christ! by cgift(m): 7:26pm On Apr 02, 2012
chukwudi44:

That verse says the spirit returns to God.I would suppose that verse is talking about the righteous departed and not those who died in their sins.I want you to know one thing for sure the souls in purgatory will definitelty end up in heaven so you mighht be right in saying there are only two places of enternal abode.

I don't think a person's soul can be seperated from his spirit as the soul is the spiritual essence of man hence the question of seperation does not arise

No way Chukwudi. That verse does not subscribe to your interpretations this time. Its an absolute NO!

That scriptures alludes to the fact that all Spirit goes back to God. In

Genesis 2: 7

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


It was the spirit that came into man when God breathe into him that made him a living soul implying that when a man dies, that spirit goes back to God (as supported by Eccl. 12:7) and he becomes lifeless! So, if there is anything like purgatory at all, it is not the spirit that is likely to be held there since that one returns to God. So, what is held up in purgatory? I hope you do see that the issue of separation does arise indeed between spirit and soul. I believe that man is tripartite as seen clearly from that scripture in Genesis.

When you say you want me to know one thing for sure; that the souls in purgatory will end up in heaven, it is not based on facts that purgatory itself is established and neither is it based on the fact that the Will to choose is still there? If someone is in purgatory, does he still have a will to choose whether he still wants cleansing or not? Or is it compulsory that once in purgatory, you have no choice but to be "purged" from the sins you did not fully repent of while you were alive. Have you forgotten that God is a God of freewill? This purgatory thing sounds so antithetical to His mode of dealing with the sons of men. Correct me if I am wrong.

To a very large extent, you will agree with me that there are a lot of innuendoes, twists and turns in the whole purgatory saga which leaves its modus operandi and even the veracity of its existence largely in doubt.

For now, it seems the only verse that supports your view on purgatory is 1st Peter 3: 19. And I have given you my own interpretation of it that. What do you think? It even goes ahead to establish that those who were held up in that prison where those verse 20 Which sometime were (note past tense) disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

You see, it never alluded to present or future prisoners. I want to believe this is clear enough. Do you have any other scripture which we could consider for further discussions on the institution of purgatory?

So, Chuks, lets discuss further.

AIO,

Those who died prior to the time of Noah, if you ask me, na who I go ask? grin As per their own judgement, I am sure some scholars will see you soon wink
Religion / Re: Catholic Purgatory: An Absolute Insult To Jesus Christ! by cgift(m): 1:38pm On Apr 02, 2012
Weldone Chukwudi,

You have tried at least with some of my questions. I however have some reservations with some of your responses and I state them hereunder:

Chukwudi's response below:



To answer your first question I would say what is held up in purgatory is a person's immaterial. Essence which would include spirit and soul.The body perishes and rots away after death.

The scripture has led us 2 know of the existence of venial and mortal sins but it does not go ahead to list which sins fall under what category.christians are enjoined to flee entirely from sin in all ramification .To answer your question even though the scripture does not go ahead to expatiate on this classes of sins ,we know from our own moral law that some sins are definitely more repugnant than others.The catholic church describes mortal sins as those sins whoose consequences are so great as to warrant immediate seperation from God.I would think a serial killer should fall under that category

The catholic church teaches on particular judgement which implies that the soul @ death is faced with judgement before being despatched to it's reward or punishment as the case maybe.


To answer your last question,there is no way one can know for sure our relatives/friends are in purgatory or hell hence we are all enjoined to pray for the soul of our loved one's so in case they happen to be in purgatory


If you say a person's immaterial is held up in purgatory, what do you make of this verse:

Ecclesiastes 12:6-8

King James Version (KJV)

7) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


It says the spirit returns to God at death and has not stated that there is any intermediary place.
To refute this therefore, you must demonstrate that though the spirit returns to God, the soul is held up in purgatory for those who have not committed mortal sins.

Also, it is clear that some serious ambiguities greets your assertions as you have implied from your response to mine.

You said since there is no way one can know what ordinary sins and mortal sins are as the Bible did not throw light on them and as such, you are only encouraged to pray [b]whilst hoping [/b]that the dead man has not committed any mortal sins that would make your prayers of no avail. It therefore leaves so much room for speculations as you have said that you would "think" a serial killer falls into that category. We are not to start defining what our notions of sin is in this instance as it means that if you know someone that was a serial killer, you will simply refuse to pray for him since you "think" he must have committed a mortal sin. Again, I think it is highly debatable and subject to so much misinterpretation. Does it now mean that the serial killer you have refused to pray for will simply not transit into heaven in the long run just because you did not pray for him? Or do you imply that your prayers are only catalysts and may not be really needed since God will ultimately judge whether the person qualifies for purgatory or not?

I hope you get my message of the uncertainties.

Now I would like to ask you this again:

What determines how long one will stay in purgatory?.

Now back to the main issue under contention:

I Peter 3:

19) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.


Allow me introduce a new twist in expounding on why I do not believe in this transient place which perhaps all discussants have omitted in the course of this debate and it goes thus in putting the pieces together:

The bolded part of the scripture above states: "While the ark was being prepared" -

In the days of Noah, there was simply no basis to use in judging them especially those who died before the completion of the ark. Now my conjectures:

The spirits in prison being referred to Peter in his text were simply those that had no means of salvation offered them and died before the ark was completed. When the ark was fully built, there was a means of salvation (the ark) already made and anyone who outrightly ignored Noah's call to ascend the ark simply perished. However, the ones who died before the ark was ready had no means of salvation given and had to be locked up in prison and had Jesus' visit prior to his ascension to heaven after His death on the cross.

People at the different dispensations would be judged according to the moral code that was in existence or the vehicle deployed for salvation at that point in time of their lives.

Lets discuss this.
Politics / Re: Notable Nigerian Heroes We All Need To Emulate As Nigerians by cgift(m): 10:03am On Apr 02, 2012
PhysicsQED: He made the thread about Ojukwu in the opening when there was no reason to. The OP's statement "his lack of achievements before and after the civil war, made him ineligible to be a Nigerian hero" defeated the thread before it began. People could also criticize other people he listed in his opening post as heroes as a rebuttal of course, but the point is that he deliberately singled out Ojukwu for criticism in the opening post of the thread.


You are correct i guess. Probably, he just wanted to come out clean on why he is not putting Ojokwu in the list since it would be expected that people may ask why he has not included him. He was just being upfront i guess as against the interpretation of any personal bias for the Warlord. I am not holding forte for him, but just 2nd-guessing what perhaps was going on in his mind.

@ Igbo_Boy,

If you are not marriedm i am sure you may end up with a sweet Ekiti babe. They are the best wife materials I tell you. grin Trust me, i know what i am saying. cheesy
Religion / Re: Catholic Purgatory: An Absolute Insult To Jesus Christ! by cgift(m): 4:14pm On Apr 01, 2012
Chukwudi and Real_Berni,

I want to appreciate the two of you for the discussions. It has shown a good level of maturity, some little deviances notwithstanding. Lets continue the discourse. I will however admonish as the scriptures say that : "we see in part and know in part..." We can only try to explain what we think we see or know but most times there is so much more than what we can see, perceive, or know. No one therefore can really say he is correct in most of these things apart from the basic fundamentals of the scriptures in which we all agree on like (General Repentance, love, humility,faith, etc) some other topics are way beyond what we see in the letters and until we see Him in his second coming and the end of days, the major meaning of what we read in the scriptures will never be made known to us.

Our perfection will be complete when he returns and is not limited to perfection in righteousness but knowledge as well.

Berni,

Even some Xtain teachings are inferential and never mentioned in the bible. So, that Purgatory is not mentioned should not be an issue because even Rapture for instance is never mentioned in the Bible but we have given it the name to describe an event described in Thessalonians concerning being caught up in the air with Christ in his 2nd Coming. In the same way, Purgatory i guess, is inferential and is the name chosen to describe the events / scenes Catholics are trying to paint with the scriptures Chukwudi has been meting out since.

But to further expound on the debate Some puzzles (perhaps to Chukwudi):

1) What is held up in Purgatory? Is it the Body, Soul or the Spirit of the dead person?
2) Also, if the Bible says the Soul that sins shall die, a)[/b]where would you then say the Spirit of a serial killer that dies goes to? Also purgatory? Or is murder still venial?[b] b) If not purgatory, I guess you would say Hell Fire right? So, do you say some are judged instantly at death and therefore do not wait for a general Judgement Day when God will judge the whole world? c)[/b]Do you think the concept of hell fire is real? And do you think someone who has being sent to hell fire would be taken out to come face the judgement ?
[b]3)
What kind of sins do you refer to when you say sins that do not lead unto death? How do you then know whether the person you are praying for has committed venial sins or otherwise?

Ciao
Politics / Re: Notable Nigerian Heroes We All Need To Emulate As Nigerians by cgift(m): 8:49pm On Mar 31, 2012
^^ why if I may ask?
Politics / Re: Notable Nigerian Heroes We All Need To Emulate As Nigerians by cgift(m): 7:57pm On Mar 31, 2012
igbo boy: http://www.vanguardngr.com/2012/03/sss-parades-seven-suspected-kidnappers-of-arab-businessman/[size=16pt]SSS parades seven yoruba kidnappers of Arab businessman
[/size]

Na wa o..ndi ofe manu don enter the business too...economy in the South west must be bad


Seems Yorubas are your heros which you are acknowledging albeit clandestinely. This thread is all about HEROES and i take your post to mean you adore the Yorubas a great deal cool

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