yodanyrd: I mean, i wanted to show my people since i know most of you have never been exposed to us. But yeah my bad bro. Well, Dominicans see Africans as anybody else see them, i dont want to sound bad but u know how the typical image of Africans is portray around as all poor, asking for food, etc which of course i know its no true bcs many African countries are booming. The average Dominicans dont think much about Africans, and neither about Europeans, Dominicans embrace their African heritages, which is already blend in our mix culture. But the view of Africans is not that strong because most Dominicans arent expose to them but only throw the media and we all already know how the media works about Africans. Honestly there isnt much influence straight from Africa, the only influence we have is the one that came around 300-500 years ago. Dominicans dont look much outside of the Latin America zone...
Am talking about the majority, but there are some minority Dominicans who would look up to Africans as a people of Africaness cultural influence.
Dont worry, if you meet a Dominican, they wont be racist or have a bad view about, many would threat you great as any person bcs we also have black Dominicans and we all see each other as the same.
You guys looks more like mixed Brazilian but i also heard that the Brazilian government is doing all means possible to whitening is people and they are rascist to their Black's How true is this since you leave around these region you could explain little to us...
Olu317: You need to be literal with English language! So stop being ignorant . Royal Guard doesn't mean being a member of royal bloodline. Instead, Royal Guard is a security is one or people who protect the Royal (monarch's )lineage with his life or their lives. Plainly, a slave is a slave while a freeborn is a freeborn. Royal Guard is a slave to the monarch.
Never said they wernt slaves even Joseph was s prisoner and was later favoured by pharaoh ...
Yea the dwarfs were owned by the benin royals and they personal answers to the oba Dont get me wrong all dwarfs in the kingdom both born by commoners by the obas were under tge custodian of the benin palace some were slaves and some where citizen's or commoners so we never knew if that dwarf was a commoner all we knew that all dwarfs were originally owned by the oba and slaves who were not freeborn could rise to attain it
TAO11: Your blindness to truth is willful and self-inflicted.
The accompanying documents which you had attached some days ago clearly describe this metal sculpture of a dwarf as a palace clown and servant.
Yet you dared to associate such dwarf clown and slave represented by this sculpture with the word "royalty".
For God's sake, "royalty" is a word meaning "members of a royal family" --- Merriam-Webster Dictionary.
How on earth, by any stretch of the imagination, did you come to the conclusion that the palace dwarf clown and servant depicted by the sculpture is a member of the Oba's family?
Your desperation to push beads' use to the pre-Ewuare1 era (contrary to well established and strongly held Bini traditions) has led you to the foregoing unavoidable laughable contradiction. How would you get out of this?
In sum, as I have mentioned to you earlier:
(i) The mere fact that the dwarf sculpture depicts the use of two pieces of necklaces is not sufficient as proof that he adorns beads, especially when such conclusion is not entirely clear from the sculpture itself.
(ii) The fact that the sculpture describes a palace clown and servant establishes definitively that he wasn't adorning beads, as beads (in earlier times) are the exclusive preserve of the Oba and members of his family and the chiefs.
(iii) Moreover, I have shown (with images) in my previous comment that a number of some Benin bronzes clearly depict the use of necklaces, other than beads, such as made of leopard's teeth, or made simply of fibers.
(iv) Lastly, your second attachment here is irrelevant because, firstly, the plaque dates to after the post Ewuare1 era (Refer to: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/310752); and secondly, although some of the necklaces and collars shown in the plaque are not entirely clear, the middle figure very clearly depicts the use of a long beaded necklace.
This again somewhat corroborates the Benin tradition that beads' use was introduced into Benin kingdom by Oba Ewuare1.
Cheers!
Again the oba owned dwarfs which makes them royal called them royal servant ,royal slaves but they are royal they are spies for the oba just the way the oba own the bronzes in benin
So anywhere the dwarfs goes in the kingdom wearing is beads anyone who sees him will know automatically he is from the palace
Am still waiting for you to tell me what was on his neck if not bead
Very very soon i will confirm you stupid and will stop debating with you ver soon i say
TAO11: Yes, ROYALTY refers to "MEMBERS OF a royal family". --- Merriam-Webster Dictionary.
I leave it to your imagination to decide if palace errand servants are also members of the kings family.
Furthermore, I hope that by your screenshot here you do not intend to insanely spin your howler and then claim that you meant a 'ship', or a 'boxer', or even an amount of 'money' when you referred to the Benin sculpture of the dwarf as a "royalty"
What why do they call them “royal guards"
It stated members of royal family meaning not by blood only both the chiefs the dukes families and any body else who stool is royal to the kingdom
Yorubas is this who you bring to debate me .... Little wonder why benins conqured the yorubas state upto ife...
TAO11: Yes, ROYALTY refers to "MEMBERS OF a royal family". --- Merriam-Webster Dictionary.
I leave it to your imagination to decide if palace errand servants are also members of the kings family.
Furthermore, I hope that by your screenshot here you do not intend to insanely spin your howler and then claim that you meant a 'ship', or a 'boxer', or even an amount of 'money' when you referred to the Benin sculpture of the dwarf as a "royalty"
I dont care if you admitt youre wrong
A possible why the dwarfs who were palace slaves or clown as you say got to wore royal beads...is
It could be that out of the royal house a dwarf was born would that makes him a slave or commmoner automatically because he he was born a dwarf and they neglect is royal lineage ....we also know in history people were favour beyond thier status because of their great deeds what you said could be true no doubt that he was slave from another tribe and he taking to the palace as a clown but what if later on this said slave found favour in the eyes of the oba and he acknowledged him for his great deed and bestow him a bead there are many stories in benin that the oba acknowledged commoners and even slaves with beeds in benin.....
TAO11: Your blindness to truth is willful and self-inflicted.
The accompanying documents which you had attached some days ago clearly describe this metal sculpture of a dwarf as a palace clown and servant.
Yet you dared to associate such dwarf clown and slave represented by this sculpture with the word "royalty".
For God's sake, "royalty" is a word meaning "members of a royal family" --- Merriam-Webster Dictionary.
How on earth, by any stretch of the imagination, did you come to the conclusion that the palace dwarf clown and servant depicted by the sculpture is a member of the Oba's family?
Your desperation to push beads' use to the pre-Ewuare1 era (contrary to well established and strongly held Bini traditions) has led you to the foregoing unavoidable laughable contradiction. How would you get out of this?
In sum, as I have mentioned to you earlier:
(i) The mere fact that the dwarf sculpture depicts the use of two pieces of necklaces is not sufficient as proof that he adorns beads, especially when such conclusion is not entirely clear from the sculpture itself.
(ii) The fact that the sculpture describes a palace clown and servant establishes definitively that he wasn't adorning beads, as beads (in earlier times) are the exclusive preserve of the Oba and members of his family and the chiefs.
(iii) Moreover, I have shown (with images) in my previous comment that a number of some Benin bronzes clearly depict the use of necklaces, other than beads, such as made of leopard's teeth, or made simply of fibers.
(iv) Lastly, your second attachment here is irrelevant because, firstly, the plaque dates to after the post Ewuare1 era (Refer to: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/310752); and secondly, although some of the necklaces and collars shown in the plaque are not entirely clear, the middle figure very clearly depicts the use of a long beaded necklace.
This again somewhat corroborates the Benin tradition that beads' use was introduced into Benin kingdom by Oba Ewuare1.
Cheers!
Did you say royalty mean bloodline alone haha funny yoruba clown no wondwr the igbos call them slaves the hausa call ypu cunny Lets take a look at royalty meaning
TAO11: I advice that you submit yourself to the nearest psychiatric hospital and be chained down in one of their wards before you finally loose your mind completely, because you already lie uncontrollably.
(1) You had lied that the Binis documented their history in writing before the Yorubas did.
I shamed you with facts by showing that the Binis earliest written account of their own history, language, culture, or even civilization wasn't until the year 1933, while the Yorubas had theirs dating to the 1800s.
Yet in your deluded twisted tiny mind, the 1900s is earlier than the 1800s. Smdh!
(2) And somehow miraculously the debate had to be against the Northerners and no longer against the Binis. I really hope that I am not responsible for what you're currently going through.
Moreover, I'm not sure how low you can't go just to deceive your fellow unsuspecting gullible Binis into thinking that some Benin artworks date to the 12th century (i.e., the 1100s).
For the record, no Benin artwork is known to date to the 12th century. I challenge you to substantiate your lie.
You really need to stop lying to make Benin appear great. It shatters your ego and self-esteem even more, despite the fact that you think it will help it.
(3) Who are the "we" who can't find the center of Ife artworks??
I'm quite sure that here you're referring to yourself among other roaming and fleeing scavenging lun@tics like your poor sorry self.
(4) And where did you get the idea from that it was not until when archaeological excavations were conducted in Ife that it came to be known that the ancient Ifes had artworks??
Your problem is that you know only very little (if you know at all) and for that reason you are always quick to conclude that there is only very little to know.
To educate you on this, as I am always used to doing:
The first archaeological excavation for artworks in Ife was conducted in the year 1910 by the lead archaeologist Leo Frobenius who, before setting out at all for Africa, had learnt (and was excited) about a superb bronze head known as the Olokun Head.
He had learnt that this superb bronze head was in possession of the Yoruba people of Ife in south western Nigeria, and the head was shown to him when he arrived at Ife.
Also, read up on the History of the Obalufon Mask and the Lajuwa Head which have also being in possession of the kings of Ife since the respective times of their manufacture.
(5) On this last point, it has become clear enough that this gregyboy is officially sick. He lies without remourse.
What Benin artwork was older than the earliest dated Ife artworks, when in fact the oldest known Benin artworks (some one, two or three or thereabout of them) date to the 1300s while relatively many Ife artworks date to the 1200s and others to centuries earlier??
How ever it may swing in the future, no Benin artwork may ever be found to predate the 1200s (or even date to the 1200s) because Oguola, whose reign it was during when the craft was introduced to Benin from Ife, reigned in the late 1200s (i.e. 1280-1295).
Post the art works of ife art with proves that date at the 12c please not with mere claims post links to were you got you findings from including references and even approved stamp if any....
If you come with mere write up full of claims just know your people will be ashamed of you....
Can you come with the links to the answered question on no4
Again ife has no centre of its artwork origination The sculpturist who made the ife art qorks cant be traced in ife no evidence that the ife art works were made in ife .... If your going to debate on this.particular question please i neeed more than interment prove to make it aimpler internet proves could be pardon but it ahould be convincible enough i need image as proves names and links not quote"
TAO11: If I have achieved anything at all since I began educating you, then it is that I was able to demonstrate the extent of your dumbness and the thickness of your ignorance.
But to avoid relenting from educating you even more, I would add the following words:
Statements attributable to you and you alone (among other laypersons and non-authoritative sources like yourself) are nothing more than mere made-up claims.
On the other hand, statements attributable unanimously to the world's leading experts, scholars, and academics in the relevant field of inquiry is not a mere claim but an incontrovertible factual submission.
Did you get that?
Furthermore, the fact that the Binis of old (who insisted to the Europeans that their tradition told them that casting knowledge was brought to them by casters from Ife) did not have to deal with inferiority complex does not guarantee that every Bini person of present time (like yourself and your so-called "edo website" ) would also not have to.
In fact, the fact that you've consistently tried without let to rubbish the strong body of Benin traditions on beads' use and on sculpture casting (although only to repeatedly fail) is itself a strong evidence of the fact that you've been tightly gripped and badly drenched by inferiority complex.
Moreover, you keep lying that the Yorubas never documented their own history but that the Binis did.
Now, I strongly suspect that you're a mythomaniac because I have refuted and shamed you on this sometimes before when I noted that the earliest indigenous documentation of anything about about history, culture, and civilization wasn't penned down until in the year 1933.
While on the other hand, the Yorubas have been documenting their own history since the 1800s, first by Samuel Ajayi Crowther, and then by Sir Moses Lijadu, and later by Samuel Johnson.
Your inferiority complex which causes you to lie unrepentantly and unrelentingly is obviously of an unimaginably high magnitude.
Lastly, the Ife Art works (which have been said, for example by Frank Willett to be outstanding and incomparable to any other "negro" Art) predates the Benin Art works by centuries. Let me know if you have any intention on this.
Lol he says yorubas documented at 1800s haha a tribe more than 50 million is this what you guys could bring to debate the binis
Northerners had written document since 18c the binis didnt have wriiteen document but they had artworks of documentation since 12c ....all the the kings in benin where dated when they died ....
We cant even find the centre of ife art works in ife but just come to benin the grid system the Portuguese documented can still be found till now ..... Just they there they sleep ontop lies
If i was you i will quit arguing for the yorubas because all thier histories are claims no documentation for back up if ife art works wasn't found in the late 20c no one would have known they did art works .....
The benin writters like egharrvba were quick to judge when he saw ife art works dated earlier than the benin art work little did he know that older artworks in benins will be found
Get your lazy ass to work using the detailed references I have already provided.
The internet with its vast online resources is waiting for you to get some education.
Take the step, don't shirk, be bold.
I think people viewing this post alread saw my counter claims to this particular issue were i had a screenshot of wikepedia site even posted the links for everyone to see your deception Never mind our arguments ends here
LegitBoyy: What's brings about consolation here? Like there's some form of entitlement attached when you reckon with Benin Kingdom? A joker!
Always try to seek knowledge before you type, read about historical facts of your people. Not that I care about what you think anyway but below is a picture of Kings from the two different kingdoms that made historians wonder if there was any cultural appropriation from either party between Owo and Benin Kingdom.
I'm dropping this to water your ignorance not that I'm concerned about your delusional grandeur.
I never said they weren't connection but because room ruled greece does itean they are brothers
TAO11: Regarding links to my screenshot references here, I am not sure why you once insisted, on one hand, that links amount to nothing; but you now, on another hand, appear to be demanding links as the be all and end all.
No, you're wrong in both instances even with your contradiction. Links are not unimportant if the statements they go to are authoritative. Also, links are just one alternative to providing references, there are other alternatives.
So, as regards the historical facts that the Ooni of was suzerain over Benin kingdom, and that Benin kingdom owed him spiritual alleigance; the relevant questions you should be considering are as follows:
(i) Did I really quote the actual words of the scholars?
And the answer is: Yes!
(ii) Did I provide a detailed referencing (including authors' name, work title, year of publication, and page number) as to how anyone may verify those scholarly statements?
And the answer again is: Yes!
In the light of the foregoing, I advice then that you get your lazy ass to work and find the books yourself, rather than shirking and asking others to find them for you.
And regarding the word "Oghene" as used by the Binis in reference to the Ooni, I am very disappointed in you for considering the late Omo N'Oba N'Edo Uku Akpolokpolo Erediauwa I as a bastard because he admiting this fact in his "The Benin-Ife Connection (2004)".
Or did you (as usual) not bother to check the work?
Can you post the page if you have read the book...hmmm a joker ...i used to take you serious at the beginning but just as your other brothers you spill claims with no fact....
I advice you you shouldnt argue for the yorubas please stop it your tribe laxk anyform of documentation of history ....yes it is sad ..but it is true.. Take a chill as for me i will never take you serious again
TAO11: Thanks for appreciating my so-called "vast knowledge of history" and my "diligence".
But I would advice that you do not allow emotions get the better part of you, because I had known you to be someone who bow to facts.
Should I remind you that you failed to provide even one shred of evidence to substantiate even one of the grandiose claims you've made for Benin kingdom? Please look into that.
Should I also remind you that for each claim I make I adduce a fair supporting evidence which you did not even bother to specifically engage?
If you really believe that I indulge in a so-called "great falsification", then prove it by engaging the specific evidences I have adduced. I challenge you!
Normally, I should have ignored your claims here and dismiss them as baseless because they are wishful and unsubstantiated. I would, anyway, say one or two things about them.
But I advice that you make it a habit to substantiate all your claims going forward, so that we can have a more scholarly exchange.
(1) I am not sure what 200 towns you noted that the Binis conquered, neither do I remember saying, at anytime, that EVERYTHING the Binis achieved was through some direct help from the Yorubas. Please clear these up for me.
(2) Where did you get all these false grandoise ideas from that certain kings of Benin kingdom controlled the trade of Akure?
It baffles me greatly whenever I notice how misinformation and distortions have become so preponderant and ingested that people submit them ignorantly and boldly.
This popular notion that Benin kingdom controlled the trade of certain Eastern Frontier Yoruba communities is false and must be corrected as a matter of urgency.
The historical reality which has been spinned and modified over time by some Binis is that one of the oldest and busiest trade routes in Yorubaland passed through the Eastern Frontier Yoruba communities.
This trade route carried commercial activities between all parts of Yorubaland, Benin, and the country of the Edo-related people such as the Akoko-Edo, Afenmai and Ishan, as well as some other neighbouring peoples.
A large body of Bini traders later came to be proactive, in seizing the business opportunities of the commercial activities fluorishing within the Yoruba interior, by immigrating and establishing "foreign" traders settlements within the Eastern Frontier Yoruba communities.
These Bini immigrant traders settlements have their Bini heads (known by the titles Olotu-Ekiran, or Olotu-Ado, or sometimes Balekale in larger settlements) through whom each Bini immigrant traders settlements transmit their tributes back home to their king --- the Oba of Benin.
These remittances back home to the Benin government from its trading subjects living far away from home in Yorubaland should not be conflated with a Benin control of Yoruba trade. No, it is a Benin control of Benin trade.
(3) You were either being merely ashamed or being outrightly dishonest when you wrote that Benin kingdom saw Ife as a religious ALLY and never as a head.
The incontrovertible historical fact (which no quantum of emotion can alter) remains that:
(i) The Ooni of Ife was NOT merely a religious ALLY to Benin kingdom (whatever that means); he was, in fact, an OVERLORD to whom Benin kingdom owed SPIRITUAL ALLEIGANCE.
Refer to: Attached screenshots below for details and references.
(ii) The Ooni of Ife was considered in Benin kingdom to be God Almighty in human flesh. Yes, Benin kingdom regarded the Ooni of Ife as "OGHENE".
Refer to: "Benin-Ife Connection (2004)" by Omo N'Oba Erediauwa.
(iii) The Ooni of Ife was SUZERAIN over Benin kingdom.
Refer to: Attached screenshots below for details and references.
Ile-Ife was clearly (from evidence) suzerain and imperial over Benin kingdom.
(4) Regarding Lagos Island, your claim of conquest is false and pseudo-historical, and I have once demonstrated that to you with evidence, and to which you had no counter-argument.
Moreover, no AlekoEleko ever said, at anytime, that Lagos Island was conquered by the Binis.
(5) Was Benin kingdom one of the most influential and pronounced kingdoms in the west coast of Africa (particularly the eastern portion of this west coast)?
The answer is a capital YES!
But was Benin kingdom, at any point in the course of history, the greatest kingdom or empire in the whole of black Africa?
The answer is a capital NO! Such a claim is the result of a crazy and outlandish exaggeration.
Provide your evidence if you insist on your position.
(6) I hope my reply here did not touch on any point which you didn't raise.
Moreover, I am glad to tell you that many people read my comments. I know this from their positive feedback which is often characterized by their mention that my comments is distinctive in that it is always backed up with authoritative references.
Please post the links to were you got those reference from including that of the sincreen shot oghene” i guess i have disproved such nams never occured in history
TAO11: FACT: The art and craft of bronze/brass casting was introduced to Benin kingdom from Ife.
Is this my personal claim which I simply made up?
No, this is the unanimous submission of the experts, scholars, and academia who have studied the History of Ife and Benin Arts almost all their lives.
Moreover, in response to the repeated inquiry from the first Europeans about the source of the casting techniques of the Binis, the Binis insisted, based on their own tradition, that it was taught to them by casters from the sacred city of Ife.
I have provided you with these unanimous scholarly submission numerous times in the words of Margaret Plass, William B. Fagg, and The British Museum.
Take it up with these expert sources if you truly believe that they've made those scholarly submissions because they are all Yoruba women, men, and organizations.
Moreover, I have already advised that you go to bronze casters street there in Benin to inquire about Igueigha --- the god (stationed at Chief Ine's place) whom the Binis worshiped till date, and who was said to have come from Ife when he led the delegation of bronze casters to Benin to civilize them into the science and art of casting.
Are you scared to go make inquiry?
And I am yet to see you put forward any self-consistent contrary expert submission.
Regarding the burial of Benin-Obas' exhumed heads at "Oru Oba Ado" site in Ile-Ife, I have challenged you severally to refute this historical fact.
This fact, as I have shown with evidence many weeks ago, was admitted by Chief J. U. Egharevba; was acknowledged by Professor R. E. Bradbury based on his discussions with "the Edos"; and was confirmed by the archaeological find of Frank Willett during his 1961-2 excavation of Orun Oba Ado site.
Moreover, where did you get the idea from that the name "Ado" (for Benin) is a Yoruba mispronunciation of "Edo"? Who said that?
Also, from where did you get the idea that it was ONLY the Ekitis and the Ondos who call Benin "Ado"?
Provide your evidence for these two claims, otherwise I may be forced to conclude that these are yet some other examples of your bold lies.
Anyways, to expose your bold lies as I am used to doing, consider the following testimony of Professor Isidore Okpewho where he alluded to some details of the Benin-Ijo connection in his "Once Upon a Kingdom: Myth, Hegemony, and Identity":
" To be sure, Benin continues to be evoked as a large mythical setting for Ijo stories. In his introductory essay to The Ozidi Saga, Clark-Bekederemo makes the following observation on the attitude of the various narrators he has recorded to the setting of the story:
In the Okabu text the stress is on Orua, or Oruabou, that is, the city seen as a state set in some remote time and place, although within the present boundaries of Tarakiri Clan. Both Afoluwa and Erivini make no such insistence on the Ijo setting of the story, being content to use Ado, the former name of Benin City, the conventional setting for Ijo tales and fables."
Refer to: Isidore Okpewho, "Once Upon a Kingdom: Myth, Hegemony, and Identity", 1998, p. 19.
From the foregoing, it becomes clear, therefore, that the principal city of Ubinu land used to be known as "Ado" even at home, not only at Ile-Ife.
I would stop answering soon you keep posting claim mere claims fable's of lies then you keep bringing reference of mere claims ....
If it was true the bini claimed this artwork was from ife how come.there is a counter claim that says otherwise from edo website that should make you review the statment of the earlier quotation .....i told you to give me factual proves Even with older sculpture works as proves but no you insist on giving mere claims and i don't buy to that ...mere claims with foreign reference works are disproved everyday when needs to disprove existing knowledge arises comes
I can also claim ife works were benin works of art and go on net and make several claims to it and even edit refernce to it ...
Yoruba should keep thier mouth shut when they lay claims to anything because thier history was never documented in any form ...going through the past oni of ife before the arrival of benin you would see that they lacked date and time of thier reign thier kings the yoruba history is full of claims the artworks of ife we cant even trace to the people that made it at ife ....
No sign that this artworks where made in ife but you could still trace benin art works to igun There is a research am currently doing to trace where ife art work came from either benin republic or from bini edo state....
You cant claim ife introduce art works to bini when the oldest art works of ife predate 14c just as the edo art works of sculptures that have benn found
Please this may be the last mention i will give you since you rather come with claims and not fact ....and yes the works you posted were referenced by white renowed scholar( does that make them correct) yes or no ?. even some of this white scholars disproved the fact that benin art works were introduced by ife to bini ....the two art works are very distinct
The ife art works were naturalistic you will feel it was made on the face of the people of those sculpture but the benin art is less of it but of historical and predated more in the 15c 18c when the empire grew
TAO11: Your blindness to truth is willful and self-inflicted.
The accompanying documents which you had attached some days ago clearly describe this metal sculpture of a dwarf as a palace clown and servant.
Yet you dared to associate such dwarf clown and slave represented by this sculpture with the word "royalty".
For God's sake, "royalty" is a word meaning "members of a royal family" --- Merriam-Webster Dictionary.
How on earth, by any stretch of the imagination, did you come to the conclusion that the palace dwarf clown and servant depicted by the sculpture is a member of the Oba's family?
Your desperation to push beads' use to the pre-Ewuare1 era (contrary to well established and strongly held Bini traditions) has led you to the foregoing unavoidable laughable contradiction. How would you get out of this?
In sum, as I have mentioned to you earlier:
(i) The mere fact that the dwarf sculpture depicts the use of two pieces of necklaces is not sufficient as proof that he adorns beads, especially when such conclusion is not entirely clear from the sculpture itself.
(ii) The fact that the sculpture describes a palace clown and servant establishes definitively that he wasn't adorning beads, as beads (in earlier times) are the exclusive preserve of the Oba and members of his family and the chiefs.
(iii) Moreover, I have shown (with images) in my previous comment that a number of some Benin bronzes clearly depict the use of necklaces, other than beads, such as made of leopard's teeth, or made simply of fibers.
(iv) Lastly, your second attachment here is irrelevant because, firstly, the plaque dates to after the post Ewuare1 era (Refer to: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/310752); and secondly, although some of the necklaces and collars shown in the plaque are not entirely clear, the middle figure very clearly depicts the use of a long beaded necklace.
This again somewhat corroborates the Benin tradition that beads' use was introduced into Benin kingdom by Oba Ewuare1.
Cheers!
Lol...you know nothing about the benin history youngman you know nothing about ewaure even 8f you have read it all you can know it more the people .....
Even after ewuares reign beads were alocated to warriors like the one i posted warriors in benin wore bead not because they arr off royal blood as you claim because they are under royal authorites the civil war in benin that occured during the 15c was a result of beeds giving to a palace chiefs wives by a criple .... This shows that beeds were alocated to anyone by the command of royalty and yes the dwarf wore beads the oba owns dwarfs any dwarf dear to the oba was. Given beads as rewards ....
Dont get it wrong this is the law in benin if you are not of benin decent you cant be given royal authority of any....but you could adorn with beads if you claim the necklace on his neck was not bead i wonder what it was
O.p ...dont be silly the benin men are spiritually stronger than the women for any of such thing to happen....what hapoens in benin is not spritual but logical..
The benin women tend to outnumber the bini men by population ...my grandad had two wives he happened to live with the last wives before he died ..he also happened to have died at a very young age 45 mind you this man was spiritually powerfull that any witch that step to is compound get stuck....so little wonder how would a women kill him...
Also never forget benin invasion with the British reduced the pop if bini men drastically ,over migrarion by the men too and cultism which leads benin men to die early....
As a binin man have not heard a Bini woman confess that he killed her husband
TAO11: Regarding your first attached screenshot specifically, with which you also seem to want to promote the false notion that bronze/brass casting was not taught to the Binis by the Ifes (even when Bini traditions strongly insist on that when the Europeans inquired).
I like to enlighten you first that contrary to what the wordings in the body of this first attachment says, no historian of Ife and Benin Art has ever stated that the craft of casting was introduced to Benin by Ife in "the 14th century".
(i) Rather, experts of Ife and Benin Arts have stated clearly that the craft was introduced to Benin by Ife during the reign of Oba Oguola (1280 - 1295) --- that is, in the 13th century.
This foregoing is some indication that the content of this first attachment (especially this bit which tries to dispel an established historical fact which is corroborated by a strongly held body of Benin tradition) is quite dubious and unauthentic.
(ii) Another fact which establishes and confirms the dubiousness and unauthenticity of this first attachment is the fact that another copy of it exists with exactly same two embedded documents, exactly same signatories and signatures, exactly same dates, and exactly same locations. But with the crucial difference being that there is a significant difference between the main content/body of the one you've attached and the one I've attached below.
This is a clear and obvious evidence of some foul play, especially with the strange attempt to dispel the established historical fact of how the Binis were civilized into the craft of bronze/brass casting by the Ifes.
The historical fact thus remains (as has been shown earlier on the authority of The British Museum and from the words of Margaret Plass of the University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology, and on the authority of William B. Fagg) that:
"... the early Oba Oguola --- supposed to have reigned about A.D. 1280 --- applied to his spiritual Overlord, the Ooni of Ife, for the services of a bronze founder to teach his people to make the memorial bronzes formerly imported from Ife, that they might be made in Benin."
Refer to: Margaret Plass, The Art of Benin: An Evaluation Based on Discussions with William Fagg, Deputy Keeper of Ethnography in the British Museum.
You known people claim shit like the popular quote you post .... That benin agreed to fact that beeds were introduced to edos by the yorubas from ife ...which i brought a counter claim against that it could that quote was a blackmail....
But i want you to prove me wrong with no just mere claims but fact that ife brought art to edo or we could create a newtopic for that if you insist...sir...
And again that saying the oba of benin burying thier predecessor head at ife would also be adressed too but not now “urhun oba ado" the yorubas happened to call the burial site..makes me wonder that only the ekiti nd ondo hapoen to call edo (ado) the only time ife and benin had contact was during when edo was known as igodomigo around 900ad after oduduwa hapoen to have left to ife so how come ife get to know us as edo ewuare gave the name "edo"
So many questions for you if you decide to answer me with mere statement and links not fact i will simply not go beyond here ....
However, for the purpose of this particular thread here, below is an abridged version of the refutation:
You seek to establish the use of beads in Benin kingdom during the pre-Ewuare1 era (i.e. during the 1300s or earlier).
You seek to achieve this through the examples of indigenous Benin artworks which depict the use of beads, and which dates to the 1300s or earlier.
However, your attached screenshot of a Benin figure failed to achieve your desperate desired objective for the following reasons:
(1) Yes, the object is said to represent an indigenous Benin figure.
(2) Yes, the object is dated to the 1300s.
(3) But NO, it is uncertain if the object depicts the use of beads with any of its two necklaces.
This last point is the crux, and it is in fact not uncommon that early Benin artworks depict individuals adorning necklaces and body-bands other than beads, such as leopard's tooth necklaces and sometimes pieces of plain or twisted fibres (or ropes).
Examples of these other earlier forms of necklaces/body-bands (which later came to replaced by beads in later Benin artworks) are seen in the attached screenshots below.
In fact, assuming that beads were used in Benin kingdom during the pre-Ewuare1 era (although this assumption obviously contradicts Benin traditions as shown above); it is absurd to think that such a highly prestigious and royal material as beads (whose use in early times was exclusively reserved for members of the royal family and the chiefs) would have found its way to the neck of a palace clown/messenger. Think again!
With the foregoing argument, it then becomes definitively established that the early Benin figure of a dwarf palace clown/messenger certainly was not adorning a bead necklace.
Furthermore, your attached Wikipedia screenshot helps nothing of what you seek to achieve.
Your Wikipedia screenshot mentions that the bronze/brass casting tradition started in Benin kingdom in the 13th century (i.e., in the 1200s).
It is strange how you think this statement helps you achieve your desperate and obviously false objective that the use of beads in Benin kingdom predates the Ewuare1 era.
May be you would explain how the statement helps to achieve your false goal.
However, it is important that I mention here that this same point of your Wikipedia screenshot has already been mentioned in my comments where I alluded to the historical fact that bronze/brass casting tradition was introduced into Benin kingdom from Ife during the reign of Oba Oguola (1280 -1295) --- that is, in the 13th century.
There is, therefore, nothing which you have written or posted so far which overturns, or even slightly challenges, any of the arguments I have consistently and repeatedly been submitting and defending since over a month ago.
The problem i have with you read with your eyes close you very wide read no doubt you still very blind because of prejudice or tribalism if i may say.... Whatsoever you intend to call what was on that sculpture neck i woukd love to head it...
In the old benin dwarfs were owned by the oba they were personal messenger for the oba... And yez they were Royal so they wore bead ...beads has hierarchy... The lower chiefs wears just single beads the higher chiefs wears cony beads upto the neck level which is similar to the oba.... The dwarf wore a single bead's because he was a lower in royalty for that schlpture of a dwarf to Made it must have been dear to obas heart... Now look again
Compare that single round bead on dwarfs necks and compare it to a single beed of the cony beeds on the oba necks...
If you still blind to see it...then i have no choice to convince you anymore but leave you faith to you
I was once like him too...my dad didnt find it funny i got smacked for been too slow,too forgetfull too Sicky and even too gentle this trait of mine followed me to my early teen years...the beating or the talks never changed me i just got to outgrow it ....me and my dad sit and talk like men now and he even boast with me over my siblings that he praised then... The issue is if you bring him to nigeria am 100% sure he will change even under one month self...but he will leave to have this nigeria mentality throughout his life the packaged gift God gave him to you maybe eroded by the 9ja torturing
TAO11: Your personal word-of-mouth has zero weight in discussions like this. The earlier you realize this, the better for you.
You're so dull not to have realized that I've already countered your claim that a certain ceremonial sword dates to the Ogiso era.
I countered the statement when I wrote the following words: "although without any dating evidence"
In other words, your statement in that regard was a mere claim that is without any evidence, proof, or reason.
To now properly refute the statement (even though it wasn't substantiated), consider the following expert testimony of Margaret Plass an expert on the History of Ife/Benin Art. She wrote:
"... the early Oba Oguola --- supposed to have reigned about A.D. 1280 --- applied to his spiritual Overlord, the Ooni of Ife, for the services of a bronze founder to teach his people to make the memorial bronzes formerly imported from Ife, that they might be made in Benin."
---- Refer to: Margaret Plass, The Art of Benin: An Evaluation Based on Discussions with William Fagg.
Moreover, since you apparently trust YouTube videos so much (perhaps regardless of whether the content is from an expert source), then consider the following British Museum documentary (an expert source) which makes it very clear at time stamp 47:48 to 48:09 that:
"The (Bini) people who made these majestic sculptures dating from the 16th to the 19th century were relative newcomers in the art and craft of casting metal, their oral traditions told them that they had learnt their skills from the Yoruba people of Ife about a 100 miles away to the North-West."
Similarly, consider timestamp 48:22 to 49:00 where it is also clearly sated that:
"European experts might argue about the origin of the superb technique, but to the Binis there is no mystery. Their traditions state that it was taught to them by bronze casters from the sacred city of Ife to which the kings of Benin paid homage."
TAO11: Again, your willful ignorance is very thick.
Like I have schooled you earlier, the so-called Judy Evans is another random unknown layperson like your poor sorry self commenting on an everyday public online platform.
Stop being inferior to a layperson like your poor sorry self. Whatever the so-called Judy Evans wrote in her comment on the public online platform (including the supposed date and price of the "Benin artefacts" ) is only her wishful statement and thus unauthoritative.
Instead, you're expected to adduce an expert scholarly academic reference which dates the use of beads in Benin kingdom to the pre-Ewuare1 era --- in other words, to the 1300s or earlier, since Ewuare reigned in the 1400s.
It is only if you are able to do the foregoing that we can then discard the Benin tradition (which attributes the introduction of beads' use in Benin culture to Ewuare1) as nonsensical.
The thing here is we dont need any fucking relgion we need humanity and not religion.... Bleep african religion Bleep western religion Bleep it it is already numbered in the bible that very few are getting into heaven and the african traditions is too dogmatic and festish ...but humanity supersede all this religion....
So Bleep religion if there is no man they will be no relgion be it islam or Christianity or atr So religion needs man but man dont nees religion to survive we need humanity
TAO11: Honestly, I am not very clear about what you mean, but I assume that you have some specific contentions with respect to my evidence-backed submission.
But if you really want to have an intellectual exchange, then begin by engaging the incontrovertible evidence I have adduced.
Cheers!
Give the links to that site and a foreign reference to that
TAO11: Your personal word-of-mouth has zero weight in discussions like this. The earlier you realize this, the better for you.
You're so dull not to have realized that I've already countered your claim that a certain ceremonial sword dates to the Ogiso era.
I countered the statement when I wrote the following words: "although without any dating evidence"
In other words, your statement in that regard was a mere claim that is without any evidence, proof, or reason.
To now properly refute the statement (even though it wasn't substantiated), consider the following expert testimony of Margaret Plass an expert on the History of Ife/Benin Art. She wrote:
"... the early Oba Oguola --- supposed to have reigned about A.D. 1280 --- applied to his spiritual Overlord, the Ooni of Ife, for the services of a bronze founder to teach his people to make the memorial bronzes formerly imported from Ife, [sub][/sub]that they might be made in Benin."
---- Refer to: Margaret Plass, The Art of Benin: An Evaluation Based on Discussions with William Fagg.
Moreover, since you apparently trust YouTube videos so much (perhaps regardless of whether the content is from an expert source), then consider the following British Museum documentary (an expert source) which makes it very clear at time stamp 47:48 to 48:09 that:
"The (Bini) people who made these majestic sculptures dating from the 16th to the 19th century were relative newcomers in the art and craft of casting metal, their oral traditions told them that they had learnt their skills from the Yoruba people of Ife about a 100 miles away to the North-West."
Similarly, consider timestamp 48:22 to 49:00 where it is also clearly sated that:
"European experts might argue about the origin of the superb technique, but to the Binis there is no mystery. Their traditions state that it was taught to them by bronze casters from the sacred city of Ife to which the kings of Benin paid homage."
....you keep posting nonsense you simply posted egharevbas works of fiction again egharevbas made those mere assumption posted there i just keep telling you all the time egharevbas works has been disproved even by foreign authors example from the statement above. You wont just learn my friend
Here is a screenshot from edonet stating otherwise of those statemen you mentioned even some European author disproved those claims
Who was the ooni at 12c since we knew the oba of benin then lets start from there i searched the net for it there is no date attached to the ooni until recently because they didn't document thier history ...benin has a burial site in the palace for all past oba so they can easily get documentation from each site alongside each oba ancestoral strine which info can be made available if needed so why would i agree with that writeup above we can even draw assertion to the claims on the side of the yorubas . What a pity for a population upto thier 50million and did nothing to document thier history
TAO11: Yes, Ewuare1 reigned in the 15th century (i.e. 1400s).
Yes, you attached a picture of certain men depicted by a "Benin sculpture".
But No, you did not adduce any expert, scholarly, or academic source to show when the casting dates to.
You may cry me a river baby!
All I know is that you will never again lie and go scot-free, while I'm still on Nairaland.
Ooh i see ...lol..that bronze art is been sold in hundreds of euro and do you think they would in the date for such a thing... Remember it is renowed foreign site for selling pictures and sculpture.... Hmm...even if you disagree my friend am ok i have schooled you on this
Like they say birds of thesame father flocks together ...how would a sensible man have this kind person as a friend if he is not capable of doing thesame thing
The flag cast 500k is too much ...govt wasting unnecessary found and the youth will aplaud for this Simply give the man basic needs and pay him 50k a month or are they looking for way to loot the alawee again....
The so-called Judy Evans is another random unknown layperson like your poor sorry self commenting on an everyday blog-like post like Nairaland.
I like the fact that I have kept you busy, good boy!
However, I'm still waiting on you to provide expert scholarly academic evidence showing the use of beads in Benin prior to Ewuare1 (i.e. prior to the 1400s).
It is only if you are able to do the foregoing that we can then discard the Benin tradition (which attributes beads' use in Benin to Ewuare1) as nonsensical.
Eware reigned at the 15c then i showed you an artefact of full military men on beaded wears of 14c you still asking prove God ....am done This is the issue with transgendered
Culture › Re: I Am Dominican From Dominica Republic... ASK Me Anything. by gregyboy(m): 10:40pm On Aug 25, 2019
