₦airaland Forum

REWIND TO NIGERIA 1963.

SIR ABUBAKAR TAFAWA TOOK HIS ONLY ANNUAL LEAVE IN 1963 WHICH HE DECIDED TO SPEND IN HIS VILLAGE. A BRITISH PHOTO JOURNALIST CAME CALLING, BUT WAS TOLD THE PM IS ON VACATION. HE ASKED TO WHICH COUNTRY, BUT WAS SHOCKED TO HEAR HIS VILLAGE. ON GETTING TO THE VILLAGE,THERE WAS NO EVIDENCE OR PARAPHENLIA TO SHOW A BIG MAN WAS THERE,EVERYONE WAS BUSY WITH THEIR CHORES. HE MET A FARMER WITH HIS DONKEY CARRYING BALES OF SUGARCANE, FOR THE PMS HOME, AND HE WAS UTTERLY SPEECHLESS WHEN THE FARMER SAID, I JUST LEFT HIM, YOU WILL SEE HIM SITTING ON BARE FLOOR WITH HIS KIDS DRINKING SUGAR CANE THAT I GAVE THEM. HE MET THEM LIKE THAT AND TOOK THIS PIX, WHAT AN EPITOME OF SIMPLICITY AND HUMILITY, ”

@Mr Agbaje
For the record, i am not a Jehovah witness neither do i subscribe to any church denomination as church denomnations cuases divisions in the body of christ which is against the will of God. My views and understanding of christianity/ salvation is strictly new testament based with special emphasis on the direct teachings of christ and the explainations of the apsotles. And as i expected you could not even address the scripture i quoted for you, that is one part of the bible pentecostal preachers would like to see deleted from the bible. Any way a word is enough for the wise you can't worship God and at the same vein worship Marmon you hae to choose as the two don't mix.

[quote author=Tonye-t link=topic=375569.msg5273055#msg5273055 date=1262941464]-------> Spiritual leaders are to be reverenced, but as[/color] [b]"R- abba" and not Abba, R-abba means a [/b]
teacher or spiritual Head or Spiritual Father.

Well this is my opinion sha! :-[/font][/quote]As usual you goof again if you read the scripture i quoted earlier properly in it's proper context, Jesus was clearly saying spiritual leaders should not be reverenced  He also specifically instructed they should not be addressed as rabbi [r-abba] contrary to the assertions you made above.


Matthew 23:8-9:
8But you are not to be called rabbi (teacher), for you have one Teacher and you are all brothers.
    9And do not call anyone [in the church] on earth fathe[/b]r, for you have one Father, Who is in heaven.

    Amplified Bible (AMP) 

I specifically used the amplified version so you won't have any hiding place in your attempts to quote it out of context. In fact becos of your deliberate ignorance, i would post the whole passage here so people would be able to read it in it's proper context.

Matthew 23:1-9:
[b]Jesus Criticizes the Religious Leaders   
1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 “The teachers of religious law and the Pharisees are the official interpreters of the law of Moses. 3 So practice and obey whatever they tell you, but don’t follow their example. For they don’t practice what they teach. 4 They crush people with unbearable religious demands and never lift a finger to ease the burden.
   5 “Everything they do is for show. On their arms they wear extra wide prayer boxes with Scripture verses inside, and they wear robes with extra long tassels. 6 And they love to sit at the head table at banquets and in the seats of honor in the synagogues. 7 They love to receive respectful greetings as they walk in the marketplaces, and to be called ‘Rabbi.’   8 “Don’t let anyone call you ‘Rabbi,’ for you have only one teacher, and all of you are equal as brothers and sisters. 9 And don’t address anyone here on earth as ‘Father,’ for only God in heaven is your spiritual Father.

The above scriptures is still very much relevant to our religious leaders today.

konfessor:
we will be getting ready for the world's end!

That's true, it must have been the pentecostal church Jesus was thinking of when he said men would become lovers of their own selves just before his second coming in the book of Matthew 24:

ajokeakin:
like the one in my church got anoyed with me last two months that i am not addressing him Daddy like the other members do,and i am 3 years older than him.

What are you still doing in the church

[quote author=Tudór link=topic=377229.msg5266188#msg5266188 date=1262862062]This should be a lesson to pastor chris and he better repent.

When you steal money from people in the name of tithe and seeds or refuse to pay them for services rendered the next thing he might hear is KABOOOOM! A robbed poor man has nothing to lose.

Hair relaxer and gel isn't bomb proof ooo. . . .[/quote]

kola oloye:
Ephesians 6:1-3

Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.
2"Honor your father and mother"—which is the first commandment with a promise—
3"that it may go well with you and that you may enjoy long life on the earth.

I know some people worship their pastors which is wrong but my point is that
they ( pastors, bishops etc) also deserve our respect as we do to our biological parents.

Of course the genuine ones amongst them deserve respect, infact it is in our culture as Africans to respect elders and those in position of authority. However that does not Justify calling another man father in the spiritual sense as Jesus explained "only God in heaven is our spiritual father" and it would be wrong to regard any man as such.

Enigma:
This is a false doctrine used by many deceitful prosperity "gospel" fraudsters to perpetrate their fraud (419) of fleecing the flock --- enriching themselves at the expense of their congregations/followers.

Show one example (just one) from the Bible where Jesus Christ, Peter, Paul, James, John (or any other apostle) taught that a poor person should "give to get out of poverty".

EDIT

1. Why did the Apostle Paul ask for a collection to be taken for some poor Christians?

2. Why did he not just tell/teach the poor Christians to "give to get out of poverty"?

3. Perhaps the apostle Paul did not know the "magic formula" that these fraudulent prosperity preachers know?

I am not making Judgements i am only stating the obvious truth as a christian and trying to save losts like you from his likes and partner in crime Bishop Oledepo whom you worship. Talking of judgement are you not the same hypocrtie that is Judging Obasanjo by declaring his wealth as stolen in that filthy thread you created in the politics section? Better be aware Obasanjo is a saint compared to the likes of Oledepo and Oyakhilome

Mr Agbaje you might learn a thing or two from the scriptures below, peace.

Amplified Bible (AMP)

Passage 1 Timothy 6:3-11:
3But if anyone teaches otherwise and does not assent to the sound and wholesome messages of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) and the teaching which is in agreement with godliness (piety toward God),

4He is puffed up with pride and stupefied with conceit, [although he is] woefully ignorant. He has a morbid fondness for controversy and disputes and strife about words, which result in (produce) envy and jealousy, quarrels and dissension, abuse and insults and slander, and base suspicions,

5And protracted wrangling and wearing discussion and perpetual friction among men who are corrupted in mind and bereft of the truth, who imagine that godliness or righteousness is a source of profit [a moneymaking business, a means of livelihood]. From such withdraw.

6[And it is, indeed, a source of immense profit, for] godliness accompanied with contentment (that contentment which is a sense of [d]inward sufficiency) is great and abundant gain.

7For we brought nothing into the world, and obviously we cannot take anything out of the world;

8But if we have food and clothing, with these we shall be content (satisfied).

9But those who crave to be rich fall into temptation and a snare and into many foolish (useless, godless) and hurtful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction and miserable perishing.

10For the love of money is a root of all evils; it is through this craving that some have been led astray and have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves through with many [e]acute [mental] pangs.

11But as for you, O man of God, flee from all these things; aim at and pursue righteousness (right standing with God and true goodness), godliness (which is the loving fear of God and being Christlike), faith, love, steadfastness (patience), and gentleness of heart.

@Deepsight
What is so difficult in God almighty getting mary pregnant via immaculate conception? Even mordern science is capable of getting a virgin pregnant via IVF how much less God.

@debosky
Even though i have nothing against material prosperity[as long as it is legal] it would be wrong of us as christians to claim that is what Jesus gospel is about cos it is not. Your example of abraham is out of place as it has nothing to do with the christian gospel no matter how much you claim Abraham's blessings. God can prosper us but i repeat that is not what christs gospel is about. If you think so kindly show me at least one scripture in the new testament that christians were promised earthly material wealth. For your benefit and others, i would post one christian teaching on wealth here:

Amplified Bible (AMP)

1 Timothy 6:3-11:
3But if anyone teaches otherwise and does not assent to the sound and wholesome messages of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) and the teaching which is in agreement with godliness (piety toward God),
4He is puffed up with pride and stupefied with conceit, [although he is] woefully ignorant. He has a morbid fondness for controversy and disputes and strife about words, which result in (produce) envy and jealousy, quarrels and dissension, abuse and insults and slander, and base suspicions,

[b]5And protracted wrangling and wearing discussion and perpetual friction among men who are corrupted in mind and bereft of the truth, who imagine that godliness or righteousness is a [c]source of profit [a moneymaking business, a means of livelihood]. From such withdraw.

6[And it is, indeed, a source of immense profit, for] godliness accompanied with contentment (that contentment which is a sense of [d]inward sufficiency) is great and abundant gain.
7For we brought nothing into the world, and obviously we cannot take anything out of the world;

8But if we have food and clothing, with these we shall be content (satisfied).

9But those who crave to be rich fall into temptation and a snare and into many foolish (useless, godless) and hurtful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction and miserable perishing.

10For the love of money is a root of all evils; it is through this craving that some have been led astray and have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves through with many [e]acute [mental] pangs.

11But as for you, O man of God, flee from all these things; aim at and pursue righteousness (right standing with God and true goodness), godliness (which is the loving fear of God and being Christlike), faith, love, steadfastness (patience), and gentleness of heart.

I hope you have been able to learn a thing or two from that passage. As humans we all want to be at least comfortable in life and preferably wealthy but we should not confuse our earthly desires with our christian faith and we should not let our crave for wealth conflict with it as well. The verse below explains why as humans we tend to believe prosperity gospels and try to rationalize it out in the bible, it is simply the world's view point and NOT that of God.

1 John 4:5:
5 Those people belong to this world, so they speak from the world’s viewpoint, and the world listens to them.

I am glad to see nairalanders are really missing uncle Sege

Ephesians 4:14:

14 Then we will no longer be immature like children. We won’t be tossed and blown about by every wind of new teaching[by Oyakhilome and his cohorts]. We will not be influenced when people try to trick us with lies so clever they sound like the truth.

Krayola:
I also used to think that, but I know better now. I discovered that there were a lot of Churches that don't preach literalism, and still use the same bible. The members of these churches just aren't the type you see everyday trying to put their faith at the center of everything. Religion is mostly about practice, not belief. These people go out and try to live the example set by Jesus. . they don't go out screaming about heaven and hell and holy this and holy that. They just try to walk the walk. Trust me, maybe not in Nigeria, but there are lots of people like that. you have to give people more credit than you do, IMO. There are a lot of well informed people out there. , they just aren't the most vocal.

The thing is that religion is big business, and a lot of investment is put into keeping people in the dark. Any google search on anything Christian and I can almost guarantee the first three pages will just be propaganda by conservative christian groups, trying to reinforce the "status-quo". There is too much money at stake, and they are not going to let a bunch of scholars s.h.it on their parade. They are good at demonizing people that disagree with their literalism, and claiming that they are "watering down" christianity and are not practicing the real deal. blah blah blah. I'm sure u have heard it all before. Also, people are only too eager to keep reinforcing the things they already believe, and dismiss stuff that raises doubts. That is the most unfortunate of all , IMO.

Brilliant absolutely spot on!!!!!!

Mr Agabje if you are truly a christian then i suggest you read up the teachings of christ and the examples of the apsotles in the bible as regards giving and stop confusing your self with man made ideas of "defrauding" people to "spread" the gospel or give to one church as a condition precednt to God's blessings. As akered said that smells like religious 419.

Ephesians 4:14:

14 Then we will no longer be immature like children. We won’t be tossed and blown about by every wind of new teaching. We will not be influenced when people try to trick us with lies so clever they sound like the truth.

Honestly pastor chris needs to get born again, give his life to christ and start living a christ like life. It's just one scandal after the other. Why is his organization so crooked I won't be suprised if there are more disgruntled people out there who would like to have his balls. Do you know how many lives has been ruined through his fake ministry and fake healing programmes?

Seems you still have a very fertile mind and you are young in the understanding of the faith. This is dangerous as you can be tossed up and down by various man made doctrines. I suggest you grab a copy of the bible [preferably a copy written in modern english like Amplified version for easier understanding] and study the new testament very well. Concentrate on the direct teachings of christ and digest it. Also the writings of the apostles are very enlightening. This way you would be able to give yourself a firm foundation in the christian faith. You can also learn from churches and pastors, but what you learn form them must be well grounded within the teachings of christ as exemplified in the bible.

Ephesians 4:14:

   14 Then we will no longer be immature like children. We won’t be tossed and blown about by every wind of new teaching. We will not be influenced when people try to trick us with lies so clever they sound like the truth

@Babaijesha
Cut the crap, i am still yet to see one single biblical promise of prosperity to christians in all the verses you attempted to quote out of context. That is apart from the unscriptural notes you added to it at the end to further confuse issues. The bible calls that"presenting man made ideas as though they were from God"[matthew 15:8-9] and hallmark of false prophets. On the contrary below are the promises of Christ for the poor amongst us and not material earthly riches:

Matthew 5:1-11:

Matthew 5
1And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:

2And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

3Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

5Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

6Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

7Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

8Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

9Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

10Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Kindly note that not one single one of this classsified less priviledge people was promised material wealth.

debosky:
So God wants people to live in penury? Life in all its abundance as promised by Jesus INCLUDES material prosperity. While that was not the sole message, it is highly disingenuous of you to imply that nowhere in the bible is it preached that people should prosper financially.

You would do well to quote a single scripture in the bible which promises us christians material prosperity and i would psot at least ten which explains that the gospel of christ has absolutely nothing to do with material prosperity. That i not to say God wants to live in penury. Being rich or poor has nothing to do with the gospel of christ and the gospel should not be twisted to imply that. That we have billions of people all over the world who are properous many of whom have not heard the gospel talkless of being christians.

babaijesha:
- While I believe in prosperity as preached in the word of God, our churches need to improve on their social responsibilities.

There is no were in the word of God[bible] that [material] prosperity is preached. Prosperity preaching is a result of the twisted minds of manipulative pastors that preach it.

Deep Sight:
Perhaps i may assist.

It appears to me that the analogy of splitting a brain may have certain problems: and more importantly it has a number of holes through which the escapist materialist may seek to divert attention and ask endless questions.

Let us rather come up with a different analogy:

Again, it is the year 2097, and mankind has discovered a way to make mechanical brains - in much the same way as mechanical parts are made nowadays for hearts, glands, ears or limbs.

Thus Tom's natural brain is defective or has a terrible tumor, or cancer. . .

We take out all the information in the natural brain and transfer it into the mechanical brain - a computer which will be implanted into his head in place of the brain.

Questions –

1. Where was Tom during the period of transfer of information?

a. In the original brain

b. In the machine

c. In between

i. He was not in the original brain as it is being discarded

ii. He is not yet in the machine, as it is just being “filled” with the information

iii. If he is in between, the materialist worldview collapses instantly – as it is thereby shown that the man may exist without a physical brain. . .

2. Let us ask: what if that information is stored for a while on a micro-chip, prior to being placed in the new mechanical brain?

a. Is Tom in the Micro-Chip

b. Is the Micro-Chip Tom

c. Where is Tom?

3. Since it is asserted by the materialist that “the brain is the man” – now that the brain has been replaced by a mechanical computer (or a micro-chip), can we also with equally-footed logic assert that “the computer is the man”[/i] or “the micro-chip IS THE MAN?”

4. If the information passed from the brain to the computer is what defines TOM the man, then clearly that information itself is TOM – Not the brain, and not the computer – but the information. Accordingly and automatically it follows that the materialist assertion that the man is the brain must fail as the man can now exist without the brain. Rather the information stored within the brain is now what is more important, and is transferred to a computer or a microchip which can perform the function of the discarded brain? Once this is accepted, as it per force must be, then it has been incontrovertibly shown that the brain is not the man but that it holds something else which defines the man – and which may be transferred outside the brain!

5. If that information can be transferred outside the brain, then there is no reason to suppose that it cannot be transferred to another brain for example in the form of a baby. . . thus. . .reincarnation?

Se.xy stuff. . .Puristic materialism is a joke. . .

What if the information on this micro chip or mechanical device is copy or downloaded to say ten different mechanical brians? would we have ten Toms in that regard?

@FMK
The bible says no man knows the day nor the hour.

@babaijesha
The bible says that we would recognize false teachers by the fruits they display. How would you classify a pastor that rutinely accepts stolen money from members of his congregation? How do you classify a pastor that consistently twists scriptures? How do you classify a pastor that you have evidence that he is stage manging miracles and deceiving the public. The bible warns that these false prophets are so convincing that even the very elect of God would almost be deceived, so it is no suprise that a lot of people are deceived by the smooth talking and suave looking pastor chris.

Matthew 24:11 & 24

   11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

easylogic:
But the question again is,who will have Tom's Self.or none?

I already answered your question in my previous post.  

Joagbaje:
childish nonsense. AGBAJE means profit maker. I make and give to God. if the name offend you what you make of Creflo DOLLAR. Im sure it will want to make you run mad. Money is my servant , money serves me. I use money recklessly for the gospel. I have because i give. if youre offended , join the wiining team . stabut get BORN AGAIN first.

Hmmm so your name means profit maker no wonder you are bent on making profit out of the gospel, i am sure it was your likes that Peter was talking about in the scripture below:

2 Peter 2:1-3:
1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2And many shall follow their pernicious ways, by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evilly spoken of.
3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you -- they whose judgment now for a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

@easylogic
Different parts of the brain have different functions, so if Tom's brain were to be split into two and put in two different bodies, it is the body that has the part of the brain that controls consciousness that would recognize itself has Tom.

OLAADEGBU:
Do you believe in the spreading of the gospel at all? If you do I will rather you spend your time and treasure to promote and propagate the good news to the perishing world as our Lord commanded. Tithing and offering may not be right for those who are perishing to pay or give because the sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to Him. Tithing to a true and faithful steward of God is an obligation that has to be done as the Lord prospers us. 10% is just a guiding principle that helps us to prioritise our giving and if we truley love God we will not hesitate to serve Him with all of our heart, might and strength, 100% of our resources is not too much, have you heard of the giving of 101%?

I strongly beleive in spreading the true gospel, but christ never asked us to resort to fraud [compusary tithing] to spread his gospel. Infact sprading the gospel through such means is contradictory to the gospel. That apart i am not even sure you know exactly what christ's gospel is or how to practicalize it. As what is common amongst you pentecostal folks is a twisted version of the gospel. But then again i admire our zeal to serve the lord, you just have to get it right.

OLAADEGBU:
Are you not contradicting yourself? Do you believe that tithing is biblical or unbiblical? If it is unbiblical why would you care if it is voluntary practise or not? And if it is biblical why do you throw the baby out with the soap water? If it is your intention to expose the charlatans that are taking advantage of the biblical practise of tithing then you will have to make that clarification. All your campaign on this tithes issue seems to me to be against the practise of tithing, biblically or unbiblically but if you have now changed your tact to conceed that tithing is biblical but the charlatans are wrong then make this clear, you cannot eat your cake and have it. Happy new year, even if this is belated.

Even though tithing exists in the bible the type of tithing being preached and practised today in our churches is NOT biblical as the scriptures were twisted to arrive at it. That apart it was never directed at christians. If however pastors want to encourage tithes based on biblical refernces like the example of Abraham, they are morally bound to preach it truth fully as just a recommended practise and NOT twist scriptures to arm twist members into paying it. WHat i am campaigning against is the deceitful and manipulative way some churches [especially pentecostal] go about preaching the irrelevant and twisted doctrine.

i4serious:
It is even written in the bible that not all that calls Lord will enter into the kingdom of God.Let us try to do our best and leave the rest for God to do.Many are called but few are chosen.
Elijah's action in the bible was also somehow similar to your reaction/observation now, but do u know God's response to Elijah's lamentation about the unfaithfulness of believers?God told him not to flex his muscles that HE GOd still have more than one thousand people that has not knelt down for baal/that are still faithfull.Elijah could not believe that cos it was not possible for him to have met all the believers in the whole world/country to have said they were all the same.If our own generation is corrupt we still have people of old known as the old school lapel like[b] baba obadare,Idahosa,baba Fakeye,baba Adeboye,Young George Adegboye, Gbile Akaani,baba Kumuyi, baba Olukoya,baba farombi,baba Wilson Badejo,mama oluwasnmi,baba Oyedepo and thousand of others .[/b]

Some of the men listed above are the ones responsible for why christianity as gone way ward. Imagine listing someone like Idahosa who is responsible for starting the reckless form of pentecostal proserity preaching that has brought christianity to disrepute today as a prophet of Old.

Enigma:
The reasoning of those who say "tithing" is not based on the Law of Moses but that it predates it is often either illogical, plain daft, fraudulent or all three.

Apparently they are just hypocritical criminals just out to make a living out of the sweat of others under the pretext that they are spreading the gospel. The biblical weigth of evidence against the way tithes is preached and practised today is so heavy that NO right thinking bible believing christians should fall for the scam. However most christians don't read their bible they depend on the twisted interpretation of often over rated so called men of God.

Evidently penterascal doctrines are far from being christlike