₦airaland Forum

@l.a.j

ise awon aje niyen now.u know they live inside the water and u people are disturbing them now.

Some people are taking this as a "laughing matter" but seriously, l have spent the whole evening/night (6:30pm - 3am) on that Bridge only to get to the end and Find Nothing! Yes, no accident, no roll-over and no fighting!!

Not until l put on my "wonder Googles" and it happened to be a Wednesday! Wetin l see, my mouth no fit talk am!

Come see "awon emere ati Ajee Igbo Irunmole" that were erecting useless barricade (yea, invisible barricade! ) right in the middl of 3rd Mainland!

Right now, fashola is consulting on how they would shift their meeting days to Sundays (less people on the bridge) or avail of the "free rent multi-storey Plaza that would be built for their exclusive use", along the Lagos -Benin- Oore axis"

The thing is, this wicked trouble-makers insist they have right of way on that bridge and that the bridge should not have been built in that area, in the first place! I even hear them complain that they only "calmed down" because Molue's have been banned on that bridge, their noise use o be a source of headache (you know, when the conductor uses that iron to slam on the iron body of the Molue and then shouts "Gbo'rieee"!) for their little ones! That matter is still in court as we speak.

As for me, l have learnt to pour some "Ogogoro" on that bridge anytime l pass and its always been smooth sailing but as it is, the dangerous creatures seem to be getting used to Ogogoro and are beginning to get drunk and misbehave!

Guinness may be a better alternative for those of you that want to get home early and have a smooth ride to work!

By the way, dont share this information with anyone as we cant afford everyone pouring inflammable liquid like Ogogoro, into the Lagoon, at the same time, that would mean "top speed" for every one! And that itself can cause accidents!

(Pours more Ogogoro and spends ten minutes to get to Lagos Toll gate!)

U welcome Brother.

Just curious, do we have this dichotomy of "Shia" and "Sunni", in Nigeria (as we have in places like Iraq)?

What is the "significance" of being either of the two?

Cheers and happy Ramadan season.

Lastpage.

BTW: When the Ram finally hits the knife, do DHL some for your brothers here! I dey chop Ramadam like Sheeegee!

"LagosShia", would l be correct to conclude that you are the same person as "ShiaMuslim"?
I observed that you post for both handles and l almost got confused!

I appreciate your contributions and that of Anu Yakubu.

Though the thread is basically an "espouse" on various Christian religious practices with more bias towards the practices and doctrines of JW's (since they seem to have more of doctrines that dont go along with main stream Christianity) but it does not preclude people of other faiths from making contributions and observations, in my own opinion.

I will PLEASE implore LagosShia and Anu Yakubu, to tone down the "personal jibes", its not about either of you, lets just discuss "doctrines and practices" without taking or getting PERSONAL! That way, we learn about each other without condemning ourselves!

Please guys.
Cheers.

Lastpage

Wait a minute! So, its no longer "bridge Bank"?
It has suddenly gone from NDIC's Bridge to "Nationalization" overnight!(using government money to take over private enterprise!) and from that to AMCON! (and then pass it over to their friends and cronies later on; does this remind me of Mallam El Rufai's infamousBurea of Public Privatization? -BPP))


This is a classic case of VODOO banking policy!  

Sanusi, you try no be small!

@ola olabiy

Sorry, man.
Maybe I should have worded my post differently but I was neither crass nor vulgar. Sorry, again.

Apologies accepted. We are Brothers, we disagree to agree!

My apologies 2u, too.

Hmmm,, ,,this law get as e-be o!

Lets be civil about this discuss, no need to insult each other (no Landlord Vs Tenant verbal onslaught here please ), we can all get our points across without the insults! Its a distraction.

As a Landlord (l collect rent) but l also pay Rent to the owner of the house l currently live-in, so l am also a Tenant! I experience both sides.

Can we address this issue: Why does a Landlord (me) need to collect 2yrs rent?

From my own experience, l can 'speak' as follows:

1.) It gives me the benefit of "bulk income" which can be used to do better things
2.) Most importantly, l hate going to knock my Tenants door, to demand for payment. I have a tenant who's been owing into his second year now. He feels only the court can collect the money from him and is ready to "bail-out" just when he thinks the court is ready to pass judgement against him (only a few useless/valueless items are left in his apartment). I also hate confrontation and l will "run-away" from a Tenant once l get my money upfront!
3.) I have had instances where one of my Tenants lost his "job". Luckily, he has just paid his annual rent and he was able to live in the house peacefully going forward (he then downgraded to a B.Q. the following year, pending when things will improve). Had he paid for only six months, this "good tenant" will not be so good, afterall! You'll know a debtor tenant and his Landlord are NEVER friendly!

4) One of my Tenant told me that it is his own way of ensuring that "his rent remain fixed" for those years of advance payment (win-win for both of us, anyway!)

Now, Let me address the issue from my tenant point of view: Why dont l want to pay 2yrs advance rent?

1.) It is burdensome on my pocket and finances, since gathering such huge amount can be difficult.
2.) I would rather use the money to do other business or even put it in fixed deposit, in a bank!
3.) In case of fire accident, l will loose my accommodation and loose my deposit as well (l know the landlord did not set the house on fire! )
4.) If salaries are paid in a Pay-As-You-Go manner, why cant house rent also be PAYG?

From the above, if you ask me, l would say the "2yrs deposit is not really the main problem" (l will rather get it off my chest and heave a sigh of relief after payment, for the next 2yrs; and that always guarantee my friendship with my landlord, nice man! )

As a tenant, my real problem which l will want the Govt to address is HOW MUCH I AM PAYING FOR MY RENT! ITS TOO HIGH!

How can Govt therefore, bring down RENT (PRICE) for a product it does not produce nor control?

Well, a few ways:
1) Live by example by reducing the cost of services that it charges would-be home owners
2) Look into how the price of building materials can be reduced
3) Build more houses such that the simplest equation in economics; (Demand - Supply = Price) will kick-in. Even in overseas countries, Govt does NOT fixed price of houses but regulates the advance rent to "twice the rate/frequency of payment" (Monthly pay = 2months advance payment, e.t.c).

4) Check the activities of touts (Omo-Oniles, Area Boys, OPC-Touts, e.t.c) who levy builders at every stage of construction and thus significantly escalate the cost of building.

By and large, the ONLY solution we need is the simplest one: Govt should flood the market with its own cheap houses and call the bluff of landlords like me!

If anyone thinks building a house is "by luck", try your own luck next time!

BTW: I hope that "Lease" is not the same as "Rent" idea, does not get out of here!
People of Lagos wicked no be small, the law is not even 24hrs old and they have already manufactured as "escape route"! damn!!

@2bosun:

Of course, l was offended or why else do you think l would point it out?
Apology accepted.

Agreed, l see a lot of sense in what you posted up there. The banks were in deep rot, even before Soludo came-in (not to talk of Sanusi) and l have first-hand experience of the "Double, Customer-Database-Server syndrome" in our Banks (One for CBN inspectors, the other one is the live, customer Database! )

But let me ask: what do you think is the core responsibility of ANY CBN Governor?
Do you think management of the nations currency, is part or even an important part of such remit?

Cheers & tanx.

lastpage.

@Skii

@Lastpage

Please, as best as you can in plain simple English,What happens to shareholders?

If we are to go by previous experience, as in "What happened to some banks whose license were revoked by CBN, prior to now"?

Basically, the bank ceases to operate.

In the current cases, we are been told that "No job would be lost and customers funds are safe + banking operations still continues! l think this is a load of rubbish and an attempt at "grand-deceit"! If all the above are true, then one will be tempted to ask: What then is the essence of the "name-change"? Why hand them over to NDIC?
Are those just cosmetics? Naaah, we are not fooled one bit!

If all that is needed is a "name change", how come NDIC (Deposit insurance) is taking over the banks?
What "kind of bank" does NDIC take over? DISTRESSED BANKS, simples!

Having said the above, NDIC has taken over these banks with the sole intention of "winding them down"! (Forget all the brinksmanship and red-herring we are being fed, get your money out, if that is still possible by Monday but l sincerely doubt anyone can withdraw a farding from those banks by Monday! QUOTE ME on this!

As it were, "in summary", those banks can be considered as being in NEGATIVE EQUITY!

Its not a joking matter but CBN has just said "They owe more than they have"! That simply is negative equity, in "plain language"!

So, NDIC will collate all remaining "Assets" (building, Equipment, Debtors, e.t.c) and do the following:
1.) Is there anyone/Group or investor ready to buy the "carcass" as it were, at a give away price? And such buyer would assume the liability of the bank(s),
Highly improbable.

2.) After "selling all its 'sell-able' assets, it will disburse the money recouped, in the following order, starting from:

(a) "INSURED CUSTOMERS", to a certain amount, NDIC will pay them a certain percentage of their deposits.
(b) The Banks creditors, like suppliers would come next, to be settled their dues
(c) The Banks "INVESTORS" would then be considered next!

The shareholders (being in the category of investors) are considered as "intentional risk-takers" since they would have made a lot of profit if the banks have done exceedingly well (and no one would begrudge them!) but on the flip side, now that the banks have also "done exceedingly well" , unfortunately, they have MADE A LOSS!
That is the risk aspect of business!

In reality, since such bank is in "negative equity", by the time they settle (a) and (b), l doubt if their would be money left to settle (c), or why else would they be in such situation, if they have that much money?

I hope you get my "drift"?, l feel a lot of sympathy for folks like me (l hold shares in PHB! ), l am only trying to put up a brave face and put  light humor to "another one bites the dust"!

Everyone should take heart.

Serrai, serrai, what ever will be, wil be,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,lala la,lala lala,.,.,.,. (sings himself to a fitful sleep)

@2bosun: Common my man don't be silly! You can't blame the CBN alone for the Naira's depreciation. You seemed to conveniently forget that his appointment coincided with that of Yaradua/Jonathan who run a very expensive government.

True, the CBN's monetary policy is crap but the fiscal framework is even worse- which is why the Naira is "almost shyte". SLS did the right thing at the right time, as much as I hate to admit it- I think it was good decision. The banks were a ticking time bomb- he had to defuse them rather they explode- and everyone suffer even more.

2bosun, do you actually think you need to refer to me as “being silly”, to convey your very sincere opinion on this topic? We cant all see things from the same angle and it does not mean either of us is silly, it simply means we have “differing opinions” on the issue! What do you think?

Having said that, if you look at my contribution, it was a “wholistic appraisal of his overall performance” since 2009. If you ask me, what better yardstick can we use to appraise a CBN-Governor’s performance, if not the RESULT of his fiscal and monetary policies? And what better indices, which is general enough to represent “everything and everyone”, than the prior and current value of the “currency” he/she manages?

*Are the banks doing better in the last 2years? NO
*Could he have managed these “bank crisis” in a better way such that less “systemic upheavals” are experienced? YES (Remember his penchant for going to the press even before any action is taken, thereby creating a run on banks liquidity?)
*Is inflation down? No
*Is the “National Reserve” increasing? NO, its rather decreasing!
*Has his policies increased “local or International confidence” in the country? NO
*Do we have more failed, collapsed, collapsing, forcefully bought over banks now, than prior to 2009, (as a percentage of existing banks)? YES!
*Has Sanusi “successfully managed ANY BANK with a problem” during his tenure? NO! All he does is revoke license here and there (causing loss of employment, loss of credibility and investor confidence, capital flight, e.t.c). Is he a “specialist” in a kind of “catastrophe style” of management?

Does anyone recall when the owners of Continental "raised alarm" about the quality of type of looters (who happen to be Sanusis' cronies!)that Sanusi appointed to manage the bank and how they were fast depleting the little that is left, of the rot they themselves have created?
Sounds like a case of "From Frying Pan, to FIRE"!

Now, l am finding it “very difficult” to come-up with other index to use in appraising his tenure!
May be you can help me, please?


@Chamber2

Bravo!!! Sanusi Lamido Sanusi. You are a true champion and an advocate of the poor. May you live long to reap the fruit of your labour.

Sanusi, within 2 yrs, has been able to achieve what the global economic meltdown couldn't achieve for Nigeria. Bravo!!!

I am yet to see what Sanusi did right since he took over the CBN.

Investor and depositor confidence have been reduced to zero. A young economy like ours, with this self created turbulence, is heading to doom.

The future looks so bleak if sanusi is allowed to kill entrepreneurship in this manner.

I need no much economics to understand the impact of this news to the economy of Nigeria.

As i write all ATM machines are on fire, there is massive withdrawal right now.

A staff of the affected bank just collapsed.

Foreign investors are afraid of stepping into Nigeria and those already in are moving to Ghana.

There is huge capital flight going on right now.

It will take us another 10 yrs of massive investment to recover from this self created shock.

Sanusi, welldone.

What more can l add?
@sirjec:

Sanusi is obviously a bad manager. So he is CBN governor to be revoking licences? A CBN governor should be able to manage those banks and advise them on what to do to remain afloat. This is just like the scenerio when Bush took over from Clinton, Lol Sanusi is Bush while Soludo is Clinton

Seems the more he “destroys”, the more he gets praised!

Cheers, Lastpage.


BTW: As for two of you (ola olabiy & akyns), you are entitled to your position and l respect that, my only wish, “is that you at least learn how to discuss CIVILLY in a public discuss” without this public display of “crass vulgarity and lack of social skills”! Until then, l respectfully refuse to engage you in any discussion.

This country is really going crazier by the day!

Am l hearing right? CIVIL DEFENSE to carry weapons!

Seems the meaning of "CIVIL" is lost on our clueless leaders!
Now, is it the amount of "Parallel Agencies" carrying WEAPONS that matter or proper training, proper organization and intelligence?

At this rate, l predict that "Boys Scout" and their female "Brownie" are the next to carry weapons!
(Am actually going to dust my Scout Uniform, "On my honor, l promise to do my duty" bla-bla-bla)

Really, the government must have a very low opinion of Nigerians, to think that what they need is "more armed oppressors", rather than more "civility" in the atmosphere!

And who are the members of the Civil Defense?
Who recruits them? Who trains them? (One of my aged Uncle is one sha since it was a voluntary organisation)

God help us o, when a voluntary organisation begins to carry gun.

Tell me, what would they "add" to security, that a well trained (and retrained) Police force cannot provide?

Time to leave!

Time will tell!
You can "confuse" some of the people, some of the time but you cannot "confuse" all the people, all the time!

Peeps have been telling us Sanusi was trying to save the banks from its present "management"!
Question is: Who appointed the "present management"? Answer: SANUSI himself!

All said and done, its not "what" Sanusi does or "How" he does it that matters, What matters is the RESULT!

What does Sanusi's "score-card", as CBN Governor tell us?

The simplest indicator of the success or failure of a CBN Governor is the CURRENCY of that country!

When Sanusi came-in as Governor, Naira rate as as follows:

$1 = #125
1GBP = #230
€1 = 165   for the major currencies.

What of TODAY?

$1 = #158
1GBP = #256
€1 = #233

Now, note that the "crash" of the Naira is "as it is", despite the following:

a.)American dollar is at its lowest in terms of real value as a result of the recession, the debt and the seemingly unending trio of multiple wars, unemployment and political wrangling

b.) The Euro is also at its lowest as a result of the groups toxic debt/bail out of the 'PIGS' (Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Spain).
To add salt to the Euro's injury, Italy which is the second biggest economy within the E.U, is in tatters and "will" also collapse in a matter of weeks. These factors combined make it seems like the Euro as a single currency will either fail totally or some E.U states (like Germany) will have to opt out.

c.) The U.K has seen no growth for some time now, its income has shrunk drastically and the only song it is singing to its citizens (including its military complex!) is Cuts, Cuts and Cuts! Its in a quasi-recession. Its currency has also weakened.

All the above has ensured that all these foreign currencies are under-valued!

Now imagine, if the above where not the case? "Discount these situations" and guess what the "real value" of the NAIRA is, relative to world currencies!

If this is not enough "sign" to show any wary observer that the current leadership of the CBN is a colossal failure, nothing will, EXCEPT WHEN ALL OUR (Nigerians) INVESTMENTS ARE WIPED OUT!

He can deploy all his P.R for all l care but l urge everyone to keep a close eye on how the NAIRA is nose-diving, same way the "value" of our assets are nose-diving!
No need for big grammar or some fancy words! And dont tell me he is "deliberately devaluing the naira"!
The naira is almost shyte, by itself.

May God help this country and save us from these silly experimentations and its "naughty Professor"

Just my take!

@jomodupri.
Hmmm.,.,., I tire for this your "Brikilar" no be small o!
I really feel your pain but "where were you when he was doing this project"?

Judging by the rising level of water (not just in Lagos but world over), its only wise that one makes allowance for such as water/flood has entered places that one never dreamt of, five years ago!
Also, by the time you fill and floor your compound, "one coach" will be swallowed up.

Then, you should also give consideration to a situation where the govt starts constructing the "public drainage and road", God forbid that your compound or house becomes the "new reservoir" for waste water!

Thats what happens when the foundation is not high enough and it is difficult and more expensive, if not impossible to correct without pulling most of the structure down (or condemning the basement completely!).

As per not using pillars, that is unpardonable.
Notwithstanding the "hardness of your soil, he should at least have put pillars at the strategic corners of the house, to at least tie it to the lintel beams so as to avoid cracks in the future!

That building looks like the sort of "old parapo" that they do in the olden days!

Let him break the corner blocks and using those 1" x 12" planks, form Pillars with iron inside them, around the blocks. You can still correct it now.
Let him also remove some lintel blocks and "chain" the lintels together with concrete beams (will cost you some money in the short run but you will thank your stars later, believe me).

Concerning the foundation, its rather too late now.
The only thing you can still do is to raise the flooring by filling the floor with enough Laterite to about four/five coaches and then do your flooring.

Dont mind the expenses now, when the floods come in future, you will remember this post!


BTW:I am not a building Engineer but experience in building my own house and common sense is what l am preaching here.

Now, "every good tree shall bear good fruit"!

Going through this thread, even that gradually became "obvious"!.

Still dishing out "Thanks" to everyone that contributed to making this thread "a learning experience".
I did learn from it, a lot.

Even if it is just " a single Biblical truth" that has been espoused here, it is one more lie of the Devil, torn to shreds!

I wont say "encore" but gradually, its winding down.

Cheers 2 everyone.

Lastpage

@niviso,

Most of these people did "declare their religious affiliation" in some earlier pages.
You can go ahead and make your contributions.

Cheers.

@thejonny09:
Thanks a million, l really appreciate the in-depth analysis you have provided.
I am going to respond to some "grey areas" that l observed in your post, in line with my earlier question concerning the place of a "biblical injunction" and " a moral adoption", which l think is at the root of this B/day palaver!
But please allow me time to "marshal my opinion", from a personal point of view (as l cannot speak for others but express it, how l see it).

In doing this, l do not intend to change your position (not even in my dreams ) but wish to share my feelings and why l feel that way, with you and others, on the particular item of Birthdays (its something we can all do without, kini big deal sef? but l want to understand "why" l should avoid it)

Once again, thanks and Cheers.


@Beync:
Now that is a very good submission.
I belong to the school of thought that says "Christ is the "son" of God, the Father". A father-and-son relationship.
I also subscribe to the notion that God is a Spirit and his spirit is "Holy" 'cos He Himself is a Holy God!

Now, if Christ told his disciples just before he was "caught up" into the clouds (ascension) that he would send "the Holy Spirit" to them, to comfort and strengthen them, while he was away, what can we deduce from this? And what can we "completely isolate and discard"?

1.) Could he be referring to himself (when he was actually with them there!)
2.) Could he be referring to his father? (Ever seen a "messenger" sending his "principal" on an errand?)
3.) Could he be referring to a "third" party, since we know he was going to meet his father?

Whatever we can deduce from the above, might help us a wee-bit to make certain distinctions as to whether it could be the same person/personae in all these!
Some have said that it is because "they have the same purpose, therefore they should or must have the same essence".
That is, "all three are one but manifesting with different physical attributes"!
Does this tie neatly with the Bible scriptures where Jesus made allusion to a separate "physical entity" as his father?

Let the other school of thought throw their weight-in, on these things.

Again, thanks for taking the time to put this down.
Cheers.

@R. Williams

Karaite Jews,[11] as proponents of the rendering Jehovah, state that although the original pronunciation of יהוה has been obscured by disuse of the spoken name according to oral Rabbinic law, well-established English transliterations of other Hebrew personal names are accepted in normal usage, such as Joshua, Isaiah or Jesus, for which the original pronunciations may be unknown.[12] They also point out that "the English form Jehovah is quite simply an Anglicized form of Yehovah,"[12] and preserves the four Hebrew consonants "YHVH" (with the introduction of the "J" sound in English). Some argue that Jehovah is preferable to Yahweh, based on their conclusion that the Tetragrammaton was likely tri-syllabic originally, and that modern forms should therefore also have three syllables.[13]

The truth is we don’t know the true pronunciation, but Jehovah has for many years been the anglicized pronunciation of the divine name, as are Jesus, Joshua and countless other Hebrew names that no one raises a question about .
There are a lot of arguments for Yahweh and also for Jehovah as being the most correct, however, rhyming phrases of the Psalms seem to indicate a 3 syllable name, and there is research that also indicates that although there is no letter for “ J” in Hebrew it is still highly possible that the sound was still used.

You could find a thousand pages with different arguments on this, but the important thing is that one’s realises that god has a personal name and calls upon it.

@LagosShia

Jehovah's witnesses themselves should not claim a monopoly on god's name or tell us that God can be refered to by no name other than "Jehovah",because they themselves are either not sure of His name to be "Jehovah" (in english) or they like all other religious groups who believe in One Almighty and Universal Unique and Unseen God also call God different names to fit His position and names that are not associated with paganism.

the watch tower has rendered the tetragrammaton into different words in different languages.for example,in english He is refered to as "Jehovah".in Japanese "Ehoba".in Arabic,"Yahwah".

these are already 3 names and there are many more depending on the language!

so on what basis would Jehovah's witnesses claim monopoly on god's name or that only them know His name or even that only the tetragrammaton should be used to refer to God?

also,what prevents Jehovah's witnesses from accepting other beautiful words that truly represent God and people refer to Him with,just as the tetragrammaton refers to Him?

for further reading on this subject,you can discover that the tetragrammaton is mentioned in the Holy Quran and you can also discover that God's name is "ALLAH" even in the bible!

here is an article by Ahmad Deedat with the topic:"What is His Name".
3.) the tetragrammaton or four letters (YHWH) is not found once in the new testament manuscripts.that is in the entire new testament,the "name of God" that jehovah's witnesses teach others to be the only acceptable way of calling God is not found in the new testament of 27 books! it looks like Jesus forgot what God's name is.or may be as they would argue that the new testament books have their manuscripts in greek and not their presumed "original" hebrew,the tetgragrammaton was expunged.if that is the case,and they presume God's "only" four letters that refer to His "only" name can be expunged,then that casts a doubt on the bible as to what more could have being expunged.

With "anticipated permission form LagosShia!
BTW: I am yet to "check out the link you supplied so dont be offended, l definitely will.

Now, this is very hillarious, in a serious way, l mean!

in sequence to what i've written in the above post,jehovah's witnesses are taught a preaching technique which is more or less a deception when preaching or trying to convert others.they are taught to ask:"what is His name".that is: "what is god's name".

many who are not jehovah's witnesses or are not well informed on the subject would reply His name is "god".the jehovah's witness would reply "god is a title and not a name",so "what is His name".you will be shocked and puzzled to know you do not know god's own name!!!then he (the jehovah's witness) would say with a smile "His name is jehovah".so,they catch you napping.and ofcourse in that way you must join them because who better than them knows "jehovah".you are simply impressed and taught that they are "jehovah's people".that is how they "catch fish" and convert others on a matter they themselves know so little about as explained in my post above.

@1stcitizen: and as to the issue of "blood transfusion" which you asked me to weigh-in on, l can only give you my own "personal opinion" on the issue
The official "J.W position" would be better addressed by practicing members of that Group.
Can any one of them PLEASE contribute?


Hope our weekends are unfolding without stress?
Am off on a bike ride with one of my sons!
Cheers to ALL.

@Niyimat.
Thanks for your contribution I really enjoy it and hope it is informative to others too?

Now, l understand that no matter how "brilliant you are", it takes "an adult to make a decision 'to' dedication and progress to baptism"?


Now, one J.W. peep (mxxpunkxxx) claimed he was so brilliant, got baptized at 9yrs!

Is this a true reflection of "practicing J.W's" doctrine? Or am l mistaken?

Cheers.


@MyJoe:
Thanks for your referral. Like McDonalds, "l am loving it"/your discuss with Mssrs Williams on that page.
The issue of "God's real name and how it sounds" has been very fascinating to me!

I remember people like Moses used that name to great advantage and effectiveness so l was wondering: Could that be why "some crowd in the Jewish heirachy" of those days ensured we never knew it so we cant also use it like they did!

Imagine, a name that could "move mountains" and "create ways through the deeps"?

Okay, its wishful thinking, but then, why would J.W's tell us emphatically: This is God's name: Jehovah?
Why not something like "this is the "closest we can get" t God's name?

From what  l can gather, in simple "tureinchi", NO ONE KNOWS GOD"S EXACT NAME!
Thats fair enough, will do with the "closest" as it sounds!


MyJoe & R.Williams, Kindly grant me permission to reproduce some lines which really caught my attention:

Quote from: RWilliams on May 30, 2011, 02:05 AM
My Joe.
If all Christians stuck to bible teachings, in particular the teaching of Jesus, the third Reich would never have happened in the first place. WW1 and WW2 would not have happened. If you go outside Christianity, if the adherents of many other religions stuck to the essence of their teachings, much of the conflict we have on this world would be gone.

MyJoe
A fantastically, horribly, childishly simplistic approach to life! Let me show you how simplistic this approach is. Say, you, Mr Williams, are vegetarian. You are entering a jungle full of leopards and believing that, well, since you are a vegetarian, the leopards will not attack you! Of course, if everyone lived by the Bible’s prophecy about beating swords into plowshares there would be no Third Reich and WW1 and WW2. But are they? What you are saying is that if someone attacks my community with the stated intention of killing the men and enslaving the women and kids I should bring out a Bible and waive it in his face, telling him to go live by its principles! Ever heard of the phrase “real world”? The issue is not whether wars would happen if everyone lived by Isaiah 2:4 (let’s not talk about other parts of the Bible, for now) – they won’t! – the issue is since people are not living like that and wars do happen, what should you do when attacked by someone who wishes to kill you enslave your wife and kids?

Quote from: RWilliams
Most of the countries in WW1 were Christian, Imagine if every Catholic, Protestant and Church of England member (Including their hierarchy) took the same stand as the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Hitler would not have had an army to go to war with. Just because every other Christian goes against the bible teaching to be peaceable with all men, to turn the other cheek, and to love your enemies, does that mean that a true Christian should join them?

The whole problem with mankind is that "Man dominates man to his own injury" Jesus taught a "way" that is peaceable, making peace. If only everyone had followed it. Now if a JW had gone to war, Could a JW in Germany who killed his own English brother in the battle field in France really be showing the love that Jesus said would be a mark of his true followers? No.
The complexities of the world, Mr Williams! The world in which "man dominates man to his injury". Imagine Claude, an Englishman normally apolitical, doesn’t give a hoot about world affairs, but today he is scared that his country and the world is about to be destroyed and millions killed by a mad man called Hitler, so he decides to join the war and help stop Hitler. Then think of Pieter, a South African of European descent back in the 80’s; he believes that his is the master race which should dominate Africa so he signs up for military service in order to be deployed to Angola or Namibia. Are these two the same? If I am Claude and you asked me why I killed a member of my religion who was fighting on Hitler’s side that would be a very easy question to answer – “I have searched my conscience and found I am fighting a just cause. Now go ask the German what he was fighting for.” I admit that my examples are a bit simplistic,  (Now you see that both can be simplistic   )as many soldiers don’t tend to answer to these examples (Rommel fought gallantly “for Fuhrer and country” but then turned around and plotted against Hitler) but my point is that on, a case by case basis, people’s consciences should decide in these matters, not some old men living in Brooklyn and out of touch with day-to-day realities.


Quote from: RWilliams
Yes there are bad eggs in amongst the JW organisation, Jesus even said that there would be “Wolves in sheep’s clothing” but there ways eventually catch up with them and when it does unless they are willing to change them, and they are no longer able to remain in it. But if you look on the whole at the organisation, they are preaching the word in the entire inhabited earth, on a scale without precedence; they preach peace at any cost, especially amongst themselves. They encourage good morals as outlined in the bible, not the “new morality” the world has embraced, even if it labels them as intolerant (more like not permissive in my opinion).

MyJoe
True. The Witnesses pay much more attention to morality and holiness than most other Christian groups. And I used to think they were more moral, indeed. Things I have encountered in recent years tell me this is just wishful thinking. The Witnesses you encounter anywhere along the west coast of Africa are just as “sharp” as everyone. They push “those things” aside and “do what they have to do”. You know religious folk are very good at capitalizing on one particular sin. For brother A it might be fornication – he will avoid that one but he will lie and cheat. For sister b it might be something else. There are some good ones, of course – just as in other faiths. And if you seriously think that what you call “new morality” – the loosening of intimate restrictions – that has swept the world since the second half of the century that ended not too long ago has somehow left your church members behind, you, sir, should open your eyes.

Quote from: RWilliams
These are the “fine fruits” that indentify a true follower.

MyJoe: Yes. You do preach some fine fruits. But you also preach some bad ones.

Quote from: RWilliams
I agree that in the early days they had some strange ideas, as did many of the Adventist/ Pentecostal religions that were springing up around that time,

MyJoe: Good. So can you, please, answer me just one question: If your church had false teachings just like the other churches that sprang up at the same time it did, on what basis, then, did Jesus select it among the rest when he is said to have come for inspection in 1918?

Quote from: RWilliams
but more and more they are moving away from observing times and seasons, leaving that in god’s hands and concentrating on learning about god, examining what he wants from humans, and helping people to put bible principles in their life.
Bravo!
All that’s left is for God to grant them the wisdom to see the arrogance and presumptuousness in claiming to speak for God when God did not expressly speak to you and the courage to admit their horrendous mistakes on prophecies and issues like blood transfusion and tell their members to stop calling other Christians “so-called Christians”.

MyJoe
[/b]Quote:
It is my personal opinion that they are not progressive at all. In fact, I wonder how you can say they are progressive. They are stuck in their old ways, refusing to admit mistakes and carry out a badly-needed re-examination of their teaching, from A to Z. Shifting the dates of Jesus’ coming is brought about, not by rational progression, but because Jesus has constantly refused to show up on the advertised dates. Seems he won’t be pushed by anyone.[b]

[b]R.Williams: JW’s have never shifted the date of Jesus coming or presence, he came in 1914 and they still believe that.


MyJoe: They have. Have you forgotten, Mr Williams? JW’s taught that Jesus returned invisibly in 1874 and would then bring things to conclusion in 1914. This doctrine was officially changed in 1925 to say Jesus returned invisibly in 1914 and will conclude things before those who alive and old enough to be wise in 1914 (the 1914 generation) all died. The 1914 generation was later change to… and then changed to… you know all that.

Quote from: RWilliams
1925, 1975 etc were just over-anticipation on some members of the organisation for the time his kingdom would start to “crush and put an end” to the system as we know it (Daniel 2:44). Really that is in god’s hands.
Matters carried by your church’s official journals, written and endorsed by the church’s highest ruling members, the men who formulate policies and doctrines for the church, the men said to be "spirit-directed", the channel God is using to dish out truths to mankind in the end times. You call that “some members”? I understand people go to any length to defend their religion, but this is like a Catholic saying a doctrine deliberated on by the College of Cardinals and issued by the Pope ex cathedral amounts to the opinion of some members.

MyJoe

[/b]Their willingness to preach the idea that one of these days God’s angels will pass through this way and slaughter everyone, except members of the Jehovah’s Witnesses faith, only shows the size of their mind.


[b]R. Williams: Well, if they just so happen to be “my true followers” (and you would be silly to preach that unless you believe there is such a group), and the bible just so happens to be Gods word to mankind, you are calling the mind of god small, because unless you blind your mind to what the bible says about it, you can’t escape the fact that the bible preaches that there will be “a great day of god the almighty” that many are on the “road to destruction” and few on the “road to life” and that he will “bring to ruin  those ruining the earth”. This is not something that JW’s have come up with, it is there in black and white in numerous scriptures, we are merely preaching the good news of the better system to come, and at the same time warning of and helping people to get out of the system here at present and align their lives with God’s teachings. If people don’t take note, who have they got to blame?
Really, the earth and universe and what is right is so much bigger than us as humans. If mankind in general thinks it knows better than God and goes out of its way to reject his words, and ruins the earth because of such rejection, who are we to call God into account for setting up an organisation who pursue peace with all men, and getting rid of any who reject his requirements, (including those who call themselves his followers but still acting lawlessly). You are a proud silly man if you do.

MyJoe: When did God set up this organization? You see, what you are really talking about here is your interpretation of the Bible. The idea that on “a great day of God the Almighty” he will kill all those who failed to see the truth preached by Jehovah’s Witnesses is something JWs have come up with. You were told that God picked your religion out of the others at some point. Did you ever ask how God communicated this acceptance? Who did he tell? No, you just believed! Why? You do not think that question is worth asking? Probably because you already believed that a religion that quotes the Bible so fluently and teaches that God does not burn people in hell must be right about anything it says. Yours is not the only religion that claims God is its own founder or member and will punish everyone else who refuses to join. What many find surprising is the arrogance of it all and the willingness of many to believe.

As to God punishing some people and rewarding others, that is a viable idea. But who will he reward and who will he punish? JWs and non-JWs respectively? You wish! Let your Bible answer that question for us:

Matt 25:31-46, NIV
  31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
  34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

Now, l love that genuine discussion! A lot of 'honest truths' are embedded there-in!!
Thats how an intelligent discussion that fosters better understanding, should be conducted.

I really need to thank everyone who has contributed so far!
I am sure l am not the only one learning "new things" here.

I also want to check-out some assertions here, read the "links" given by both sides so l can come to an informed "position", going forward.

If anyone thinks he knows it all, he fools himself and that is why "it is very key that people who defer on certain issues, have an opportunity to sit down and discuss their differences, in a humble and matured manner, so that differences can be minimized while similarities can be amplified"!

Now, this issue of "masonry, Pyramid and Templar" is "new" on me as it regards to "Christians and J.W's". Cant comment on it now.

Let me thank PwOnder, Ibukun Obi, klear, Kenoye, Pelezico, aboqui, Noghayin03, Beync, Ojuumiii, Cloud7, Psuh4naija and begwong, for your contributions.

Its not about "thrashing" a group of Christians or Muslims, its about understanding each other more: You explain your side, l explain my side!

Let me also thank everyone that have made their "religious affiliation" known.

I would like to "stand aside" a little while those who are experts (on the J.W side) explain the misconceptions/misgivings people have about the group.
Mind you, l cannot repeat too often that l am not a J.W (no pun intended) and l dont purport to know much about them or speak for them but l have rubbed shoulders with them a lot, in various capacities that l know just about "a little" about them but then, if its not an Eagle, it cannot soar like an Eagle"!
I also wonder, that they dont participate in "conflict/war or any kind", how would an "utopian society" be, if it were fully made up of J.W's? No Libya, No Iraq, No Somalia, No Kosovo, No Cold war, No Afghanistan, No Boko haram or OPC or MEND, (closer home), e.t.c

Just "arguments and counter arguments" and its sorted? Hmmmm.,.,.,.,.,.

Cheers everyone.


BTW: I have never met a J.W. who is "noisy and puffy about worldly things", one who is generally uncouth as they tend to maintain decorum and that itself is evident from the few that have contributed on this thread, except the one who made the quote below!
You will agree that other Christians and Muslims who have contributed here-in are also worthy of emulation.

@mxxpunkxx

Who baptized you? As much as I am gentlemanly;  I can be wild.
I am one, and I bet your car is not as flashy as mine; dat's if u even have a car. I dont wanna be too personal lest am called a fanatic.
Religion should be a force for good! Its your life to live and not your parents. I got baptized at age 9. Dont say it was too young to understand d teachings of spirituality cos i was in high school and i could solve complex mathematics.

To be honest, in all  my years on earth (and l currently have two siblings who are full time J.W's, one of them is even an Elder!) l have NEVER met a J.W that sounds like that! Some mothers do have them? Naaah.
Anyway, will ignore him and keep keeping this discourse as civil, mature and informative as can be!

@leulliot

OP is a JW :d :d

You’re dead wrong but if l was one, l will proudly say so. I worship with the RCCG and l am proud to announce that too! What are you and where do you worship? Are you proud to say it LOUD?
if l feel competent enough to speak for the J.W’s, l would but like M.K.O Abiola use to say: “You cannot shave a man’s head behind his back”! The Cola is sweetest in the mouth of the owner, as they say!
All the same, you are welcome on board.
Cheers.


@Anu Yakubu

But, if you need to know anything about JW, these two websites will detail it for you:

1. www.watchtower.org.
2. www.jw.org

For further personal discussions on the above subject, please contact anuolu.yakubu@pzcussons.com and copy ykb2k2@yahoo.com.

Thanks Anu, l like people that “shoot straight from the heap”! (metaphorically speaking!).
Can l ask you to PLEASE shed light on the “Trinity issues” as someone has requested? l beg please.
I know you did direct everyone to the “official website” but to tell you the truth, l could be lazy and get distracted if l should take that route (good for when time is available though) but since we are “blessed with your presence in the house”, do it to us as a favour.

Cheers.


Thanks “begwong”.

Very insightful! Note,the op grew up in (AMONG .JW. Parents) but now in RCCG and still in disagreement with some of their (RCCG) doctrines. well, is not how you start, but how you end your sojourn here on earth. Remain blessed everyone.

I keep repeating that but some are not taking it seriously! I have children and if and when they grow up (God willing), they are free to choose where they want to worship but the “basic ingredients of God’s knowledge, from the Bible” is what l owe, to impart in them now.
My parents NEVER forced me to become a J.W., why should l force ANYONE to worship where l worship?


To others who l did not "directly make a reply to their contribution", its because you have "said it ALL".
Puurr-fect, like the cat will say!



Have a bright day ahead.
Me off to bed

@fm7070

@lastpage
I love your understanding of the Bible and doctrines.
I want to ask. Do Jehovah Witness member believe in tithing, first-fruit, etc.
Thank you

Don’t ask me please! I no be J.W “but’ from the interactions l had with them over the years, through my parents, l understand they don’t pay Tithe or any of those “well-named collections” we have in Pentecostal Churches.

Infact, l can still recall they have this “brownish contribution box” at a very obscure corner of their Kingdom Hall and you would almost miss it ‘cos it’s not “well placed” to be seen. I have watched a few members “sneak money” into the box like it’s a crime to be seen putting money into it, believe me, no matter how l tried, l could not figure what those chaps are squeezing into that box, could be tissue paper (lol) !

Anyway, you can see the impact on their Ministry; the J.W Ministry barely survives financially and l cant remember any of their “Pastors” buying flashy cars or Aeroplanes, to “further the Ministry”! Or even putting the church Assets in their personal name!
That one is a Pentecostal scam!

By the way, l think they spend more time (collectively) preaching the Good news than any other church on earth. What do you think?
Thanks for your contribution.
BTW: I later saw that lond007 did answer your question! Me Bad!!
Cheers.


@tonnytox

Thank you for this thread its very informative, I also like your openess and the way you anaylised the JW doctrines.

For me i have nothing against the JW, islam,pagan, hindu, atheist, etc what i don't want is some extremist who like to force you to accept there extremist views.

and BTW I love reading the AWAKE magazine.

Your position is most admirable. Even God gave us the “will to choose” otherwise, he could have created us like the “Robots”we humans manufacture (If they don’t do what we want, we simply scrap them!).

He rather like we serve him because we love and respect him. Again, l think this question nose-dives into the issue of “Hellfire” and the way the J.W’s explain it: Don’t serve God because you’re scared of spending eternity in a burning fire, God is not wicked enough to create such place for we humans, but even in the absence of such threat, serve, love and honour your God!
Looks and sounds like Turkey to me, why wont l eat that?
Cheers & good morning! (3am!)

@lond07

Yes, I think they are right in this. When I went through the bible, especially in the new testament, the 'Amen' was used in the end of the book after a prayer.

Consider Ephesians 3:14 - 20, Hebrews 13:20, and reply with how many AMEN is said there pls

First, you did not “observe our self-imposed code of conduct” = full disclosure of your own religious disposition! (l later could realized your affiliation, from your post)
l like people like you who will try to educate me, on issues like this, using the Bible.
I checked out the verses and those prayers ended with “a Single Amen”, in both cases.

Now, l cant argue with these but l want other people in the house (those who attend churches that say Amen at every line of prayer) to please justify their own position, from their own understanding.
I want to learn from both camps. Is there a place where Christ uttered a prayer in the Bible and was there one or many Amen in it? Can anyone help with this question?

Thanks once again.
Cheers.


@divine2043

Quote 1John 5:7 and the witness run away. The real version that is.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.
NIV is an anti-Christ and an anti-bible. Be careful what bible you read.

Hi divine, l read that verse above and l am wondering what is really scary about it?
I have heard people say “J.W’s have their own Bible (NWT) and that it is a wrong Bible, now l hear you say the New International version(NIV) is also not the real one (Anti-christ, anti-Bible!), WHICH ONE DO YOU THINK IS THE REAL ONE?

I use an NIV that was given to me by an elderly stranger whom l met over two decades ago in some far away Northern State, by coincidence (I was a Youth Corper and he needed somewhere to stay, so l housed him for a month, he in-turn gave me a Bible as a graduation-day present!) and even in my own church, when l read Bible verses, they would prefer someone else read it from another Bible version!

What’s the story with all these differing versions? Does the subtle difference (usage of English words like “Lo, Ye, Thou, e.t.c) matter that much?
Have significant changes/alterations been made in these versions, changes which would affect the central theme of the word of God?
I think there is a phrase at the end of Revelation which makes it "unwise" to "add or remove" from the word of God?

Anyway, l await your further explanation about that verse.
Cheers & tanx.

@ojumii

my principle is no matter what u do, has long as it does not go against humanity is OK by me but i will always be a Muslim
@Lastpage: thanks you for your in-dept information it truly help, on nairaland this are the type discussion we should be engaging in, it truly help.
and thank you all.

Thanks Ojumii.
I personally acknowledge people like you, peeps who have an “open mind” towards knowledge/religion in general.
You don’t have to become a Christian and l don’t have to become a Muslim, but “doing good to humanity” is evenmore important than the religion we profess after-all, Jesus himself said that “once you do these things to your fellow men, YOU ALSO DO IT TO ME!”.
Cheers Bro.


@Jah Man

@Last page,
Please help me answer the question below;

Q:Will a JW faithful who believes and practices what they teach qualify to enter into the Kingdom of God, by your own belief of God's standards?

I can pass for a JW because I lived among them and know virtually all of their doctrines and their lines of argument.
Some of them who do not know me that tried arguing ended up either scheduling for a second day to continue the argument (as is their custom) or just becoming my friend.

But at a point I asked myself what really matters.Since my ultimate goal in life is to please God and enter into His kingdom,I should rather use the time for argument to pray for them(since they won't really accept me preaching to them on repentance).

Your thread is really educative and informative(just like their Awake mag) but what ultimate benefit will it bring to your readers,JW and non-JW adherents concerning what to do to inherit the kingdom of God?

Please I will be pleased if you answer the question I asked above.

You are just like me, we both grew-up in the “thick of J.W” so we are very familiar with their teachings but believe me, l have attended the “Cherubim and Seraphim Orimolade” and Christ Apostolic Church (CAC in those far-gone days when they “cry and pray”! ) with my parents, as a Kid before they later became J.W.

I cannot “answer for J.W’s, l can only say “what l think” which might not be a true reflection of their position. If l knew all the answers, l wont be on this thread at all!
Concerning your question:
1.) It could be an avenue for people to discuss and air their perceptions of the J.W

2.) It could bring about a better understanding of their positions on certain issues that concern all of us

3) By exchanging ideas, we break down the “barrier of religious bigotry”, most based on ignorance, the type that leads to people fighting over religion or fighting on “behalf of God” when in actual fact, we are all God’s children/creation and HE does not need us to break each other head, on His behalf!
4) Again, to be enlightened about other people (like travelling and acculturisation) is to appreciate them, even in their “difference and uniqueness”; and this does not end with the J.W alone. I hope one day we can discuss issues like “What is it about the RCCG Holy Ghost Festival”?, Why do Muslims in the North think those in the South are inferior? Why do men fight over Religion is there is only one God? e.t.c.

Let me stop here, l hope you would see it from my position?
Cheers.

@mxxpunkxx

@op

No matter how long u spend studying canines, u;ll never know what it feels like to bite human flesh, unless you're indeed a full-fledged canine.

meaning? spend 100 years attending meetings and its not bi-annual, its tri-annual, and they are not festivals, okay?. yup, spend 100 yrs, attending the Lord's evening meal, you won't know dime.

U think it takes nothingness to be baptized? Get baptized first, then you can come back here and re-air your views
The end justifies the means, we all know that!

I actually did complete the “baptism class Literatures” , when l was like 19yrs of age! But l did not “do the baptism” and like l said, my parents are not the type to force you to do something against your wish.

Now, did that “reduce my knowledge of the “key principles” of J.W teachings”? NO
Has it helped me in life? YES

Baptism is a final step of dedication (Other J.W’s here can testify to that), it does not turn a "humanbeing to a monkey, all of a sudden".
It’s a declaration of “setting yourself aside" to serve God and all Christians are encouraged to do it.
Of course,l am a baptised Christian as l write now.

Okay, lets lay off, we are committed to keep this discuss “decent and devoid of crass innuendos”.

Tell us what you know.
We’ve had people here, asking for explanations on “Trinity, Blood, Taking alcohol, Tithe, e.t.c. Could you please “enlighten us” on these issues instead of focusing on me?
I never claimed to know too much about J.W's and that is why l keep directing “core questions” about the J.W doctrines, to members of the Group. Saying l studied with them of-course, does not make me a J.W (something l never claimed to be: For emphasis, l repeat, l am RCCG Oooooo)


BTW: That your last post was very un-gentlemanly and “un-J.W like”!
You are not the first J.W on this thread and the civility + candour they (and other non J.W) have espoused is admirable.
This thread is not about “hatred of J.W or any church for that matter”, it is about “education and understanding of each others doctrines”.
Or is this a case of the ”black sheep” in the Pen?
I don’t hear J.W’s going about repeating/swearing profanities (“Damn”) in every paragraph they write, they are generally decent peeps.

Thanks for your opinion about me, lt is respected.
Cheers.

Anyways, you're wrong on that assumption!

if you read the beginning of this thread, l did make it very clear, as l am somebody for "transparency and full disclosure", that my "old folks" where J.W's and you will be right if you conclude that l was "exposed to their teachings for sometime, while growing up".
You cannot be a "good child" like me and not learn a few things from your old folks

I also have made allusions to the church l attend right now (Just go through the earlier postings l made) which is RCCG.

Do l admire them (J.W's) in certain things? You bet.
Do l agree with everything they say or do? No, l have my differences.
Do l agree with everything my own church does? No, l dont, but l still do respect them.

Just see me as someone who wants the best of both worlds!

Now, Jesus did not "justify the issue"; he did (to my understanding) make them understand that "they are chasing straws", leaving more weightier things and harping on "moral issues"!
Now, blood eating, as even repeated in the New testament, WAS NOT A MORAL ISSUE!
It was a serious LAW. (impeachable offense as we would say in the Assembly House! )

All the same, "we agree to disagree", l appreciate your candor and remain blessed.

Lastpage.


BTW: I think @LagosShia@ is a Muslim (Shia Muslim), It does not make difference or change anything but l may be wrong about him sha!

And please, no one is the "first wise one" here, we are all learning from each other.

cheers.

@IstCitizen,
Thanks for your patience.
I was hoping a "J.W peep" (someone with above average understanding of this issue, unlike me!), will "bail-us-out" but it wont be fair if we dont even make an attempt, at least from our own "main stream Christianity" point of view.

Like l said, l am not a J.W. neither am l so versed in the Bible, l just try my bit, for my soul's sake!

There are two issues at stake here:
1.) God's express command which constitute "a sin" (albeit the "old testament" as against "moral issues" outlined in the Bible (like avoiding Birthdays, avoiding alcohol, avoiding polygamy, avoiding jealousy, e.t.c). Does what Jesus did on a sabbath, go against the principle of the law of sabbath?

But then, the "understanding" of such issues must be inline with "the total and wholistic objective" of the Bible, new or Old.

2.) Trying to avoid 'a trap' set by those playing to the gallery!

3.) Does it go against the requirement in God's law?

Let me start with 1.
Keep the sabbath day "holy" was God's command.

Question is "how do you keep the sabbath day "HOLY"?
By not doing a good deed? By not lifting a finger at all? By not eating? By doing Evil?
Did Christ keep the principle of that law, by his action?
Let me leave the answer "open" to everyone to interpret.

In relation to (2).
Again, what was the "objective" of the "learned people" who were involved in this episode?
From Bible accounts, they were people who were looking for an excuse to TRAP JESUS!
They wanted him to run "foul of the law" handed over to them by Moses and some prophets, so they can "arrest him"!
(situate this in context with when they tried the same "sharp move" on Jesus, concerning the "paying tax" to King Ceaser and he had to "use an innocent fish" to pay the tax! . At another time, Jesus used the issue of "A man with 100 sheep, where just one, fell into a ditch and he left the 99 to look for the single one! ).

Now, Jesus knowing what they were about, used there question to answer them back (a typical Nigerian move, l will say!).
If he had refused, the would "tag him" evil for not helping a sick man! (knowing that if he "did any work" on a Sabbath, they could also accuse him of flouting "The Law"!)

So, Jesus "did a good deed" by healing the leprous man, "ON A SABBATH DAY".
By "doing a good deed", he has also kept the "principle of the law" of Sabbath day, "Holy". ------------------------(aaa)
No "contradiction" here at all. "command" and 'action" are in order!
Both requirements have been fulfilled.
What can be more "holy" than doing good ?
If (1) and (2) has been fulfilled, (3) is them fulfilled by implication.


Now, lets "relate" this to the "Dont eat blood question" and "saving a life analogy" that you made; but flouting (or appearing to flout) the law, like is our first case up there. (Which is what l think you want?)

We will use the same "yardstick" we used before.
1)Does "the action" go against the principle required in "the law"?
2) Does the action serve the purpose of "silencing critics" or "escape a set-trap" by the learned Pharisees?
3)Does it contravene God's requirement?

Command: Dont eat blood. Why? because the "blood is the soul/life of that living thing" and that part of it belongs to God.
Action: By taking blood, does that "action" go against the "principle" of that law? Lets wait and see

Is there a way to "take/eat blood" without contravening the "command"? NO!

(compare with healing on a Sabbath in "(aaa)" above.)

Now, lets assume you now "take/eat blood by any means" (transfusion, by mouth, e.t.c) in other to SAVE YOUR OWN LIFE! ------(bbb)

The only good you have done here (and its a big one!) is to save a (your) life. --------------------------(ccc)

The difference here however, is that "in doing "this good deed!" you have disobeyed God!

(compare this to (aaa) above!)

To further buttress the difference between the two scenario and why the "good deed" in (aaa) is not the same with a similar "good deed" in (ccc),
(and this one is from a religious point of view, so you might not buy it if you dont believe it! ).

Jesus said "if you "loose your life" in the process of "obeying his commands", that your life will be ransomed back to you, even in Paradise!

Look at it this way: Jesus lost his life (killed on the stake/cross) so that he could obey God's command, that he die for humans so they can be reconciled back to God, having f.cked-up through Adam and Eve (by inheritance now), in the garden of Eden.
He obeyed and suffered the tribulation (imagine the "first born heavenly creation" becoming a human and being killed by humans!).

But God's promise to "give him back that same life" even at a higher levels, was CONFIRMED when he rose up and ascended to heaven.
If God can do that, do you think its worthwhile to "loose a/your life here" and "try God" for his promise ?
OR
Try and save your own life here and disobey God?
Remember that "blood transfusion is not 100% guaranteed that the "taker" would survive, even the operation!

Looks like a very hard choice, when faced with imminent death but who says obeying God was McDonald stuff?

This is how far l can go, l know it may not have answered all or quenched your reservations but hopefully, with time, with more questioning and more importantly, with God's help, you may look at the flip side of the coin.

Cheers bro.

@Uche:
I like your post.
I am not speaking on the behalf of J.W peeps, not in anyway but let me add "my observations" to your post, very quickly.

From your Number 3:
J.W peeps say that God is not that wicked to reserve hell for we humans. infact, let me quote you to make it easier/quicker.

3. Jehovah will not punish man eternally over the few years he spent on earth because He is a merciful God- Sincerely i dont care so much about their other doctrines but i believe this is where the devil has succeeded in pulling a wool over their eyes for them to believe that since God is so kind, we can live any how without the fear of hell and rapture.

*From your own observations in Nigeria or elsewhere, do you think that J.W's are taking advantage of this "position on hell" to commit atrocities in the society?
*Compared to other Christian denominations who profess hell as a place of torment, do you think there have been (or are) more criminal elements within our society, who are J.W's or the other way round?

*How many of our treasury looters are J.W's? How many armed robbers in our areas of living are J.W's? How many peeps whose "life-style and wealth display" are J.W's?

*Again, using an analogy, do you think we should "obey our parents out of fear of the punishment they would mete to us" rather than out of love, respect and the fervent belief that their instructions to us, are for our own good?

*Finally, are you aware that the Bible said Jesus was "in-hell" for three days? What did he do to merit going to "a fiery fire burning place"?
Cant get the verse now but even Job asked/pleaded that God should "keep him safe in hell" till his troubles are over!
Do you think these would be logical if we actually go by the "general belief of what Hell is suppose to be"?


BTW: concerning the 144k peeps, can a J.W person explain it to us all, over here?
*I know of places in Revelation where it quotes" Our Spirit tells us that we are Children/first fruit/inheritors with Christ".
*Something about singing a new song and only the 144K could sing the song
*Something about them being a "virgin and redeemed out of the world" (this virginity issue sef. e dey cause wahala 2much! )

Thanks for your comment

Good, neat and suitable Uniform is very desirable for the Police- Its called "Social Conditioning"!
You might have observed that those who dress "neat" or on "light colored Dress" (like white) tend to behave in a way that minimizes the dirtying of such apparels! Make the Police wear Navy-Blue Trousers, White/Sky blue Cotton shirts and give them 'steel-topped" security boots.

Having said that, we also need "psychological Conditioning" for these officers!
Most of their "problems" originates from their "MENTALITY"; sorry to say but close to 90% of the current force have criminal mentality!!

Sir Mike Okiro was a graduate-employed officer,
Tafa Balogun was also of the "graduate Corps" and many others like that who are State Commissioners, e.t.c.

Are they still not crooks? Its in the  mind!

Note that every rank above Assist. Superintendent of Police (ASP) is a graduate-level rank!




My suggestions:
*Pay them well.

*Do a serious "back-ground check" before putting them in Police college (No one with Criminal background must handle a gun)

*Go straight to the Universities and recruit, not someone who sees Police as a "last option"! (Same with Teachers! Not frustrated persons!! )

*Dont "dehumanize them" during training (they simply pass-it-on when they graduate! )

*Rebuild the Police stations and let it look like "proper working offices" (Not the current smelly dungeons we have)

*Train and re-train them regularly (Modern Policing is not by "use of force", its by "use of technology".)

*Equip their stations with computers and internet access + modern communication tools + Mobility +Modern weapons to be used when needed only)

*Set-up a "Police Ombudsman" committee that would speedily try erring Policemen and impose "very stiff penalties and discharge them"

* Let Policemen "police areas they are familiar with", where they live, as they will know the criminals there (Community Policing)

*All ammunitions must be "recorded and its use justified" on a daily basis, to an "external audit body" (Not the same criminal DPO)

*Setup a well equipped "Police Forensic Laboratory and staff it with qualified scientists of various specializations.

*Set-Up (or re-organize for effectiveness), an "Intelligence gathering Arm" in every Police District (Like the CID in the good old days!)


I can go on-and-on but l am not in a position to make these changes and l doubt if those in that position come here to glean "ideas" at all
Whats the point?

@Koolking, thanx for that post above

@rezzy,
Hmmmm.,.,., i can see you really dont like them!

but is there "anything" you like about them?
Like the "nice hymns" they play during service? There should be "something" you like naaah?
What about their "sharp guyz"?

@MyJoe:

(1) The Witnesses do not have a policy of dusting their feet on people’s doors. They believe that preaching to you serves as a witness and the dust will automatically drop anyway. Of course there may be some overzealous members who will engage in that sort of thing, but this is not a church policy.

(2) About their songs, funny, I actually like them. In fact, I can listen to them all day. It’s only in a JW or Catholic Church service that I may experience some inner peace while attending. In an Anglican or Pentecostal service I just keep praying for the thing to come to an end because of the high decibel noise.

(3) I find your take on the blood transfusion issue a tad simplistic and way too superficial.

I will have to go along with your position on post number (1). I guess when it comes to maters of religion, "zealousness" (like Apostle Peter! ) could have an impact.
I also think issues like "environment and level of prior formal education" can also be an influencing factor.
I noticed that "Female J.W's" dont wear Trouser!

Growing up, l took up this issue with a "Brother" during a Bible study.
I will later go into details of his explanation and that of others on the issue (Dinner time and kids are waiting! ) but l noticed that in Europe and the Americas, the female members adorn trousers!
I also noticed that the "not-so-educated" members of the J.W take issues far too seriously and "enforce it" with an iron hand! I showed an elderly woman (J.W) the picture of another J.W woman l took with her in Europe, some years back when l came around and told her that "see, that is a "sister" in trouser, how come sisters here ban the same trouser? She told me its their "culture" but l reminded her that God's laws are "Universal". irrespective of "location, race, religion or culture".

Can you relate with an earlier post l "copied" (with permission ) from another J.W poster on his explanation on the "Use of blood" by Christians?
I find the explanation very rational, from a purely religious point of view but another Poster now threw spanners in the works by implying that "if it is in the course of a greater and common good, some religious obligations can be "bent" around, just like Christ "bent around" the issue of Sabbath Day, in the Bible.
What is your take on that?

As per their "Concerto jazzy" music, well, l love Jazz but not that type, l prefer the instrumental jazz rendition of songs l already like. Like the instrumental version of "Phil Collins - Paradise, for example.

Cheers

@Enigma:

Well done and many thanks for this informative thread; to be honest, my attitude to the JWs is similar to yours by and large (though this may come as a surprise) ---- there is then the issue of false (or at least wrong) prophecies concerning the ending of the world.

However I want to take issue with one thing from your posts. You said:

Quote from: lastpage on Today at 02:32:09 AM
. . . . What does Trinity mean? It means that Jesus is the same “physical entity” as God (Jehovah) and it is also the same “physical entity” as The Holy Spirit. 3-in-1, as we usually say!

That is not a very accurate representation of the Trinity doctrine and can be misleading.

The Trinity doctrine is that Jesus Christ is of one "being" with the Father; or of one "substance" with the Father. In layman's terms, Jesus is of the same "material" as the Father; or Jesus is of the same "stuff" as the Father. This is represented in the technical expression - consubstantiality; see for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consubstantiality.


Knowing you from time past here, I am confident you will appreciate the subtle but very important difference.

If we simply say that Jesus is the same "physical entity" as the Father without qualification ------ then we will NOT have a/The Trinity; in fact, we will be heading in the same direction as the "Jesus Only" people.

Cheers.

Thanks for your comment.
You used the words "being", "substance", "material", "stuff", to describe the relationship between Christ and "God" (the father).

What about the "third leg" of the arrangement? The "Holy Spirit"? How would you relate the three together?
My own explanation was from a "Redeem point of view" 'cos l asked the Pastor of my own parish about the issue! You know at the end of every service, we say the "benediction": In the name of the father, the son and the Holy ghost, bla-bla-bla,.,.,.

Personally, l am convinced about the "Unity of purpose" of the three. What purpose? That God's sovereignty is declared amongst men.
I also believe that, judging from the way Christ talks about "God, his Father", he most uses a "second person" phraseology (Dont touch me cos l have not yet ascended to my Father, 'l and my father are one, e.t.c), l think these shows that "he was not talking to and neither referring to himself!

Again, Jesus Promised to "send the Holy spirit" to his Disciples, after he gets to heaven, to comfort them and strengthen them, in his absence.
How is it possible to read this to mean that "He was going and would them "send himself" back to them?'

Does it not imply that even though they are of the same "substance", of the "same material" (as in their holiness), of the "same stuff" in terms of spirituality, BUT they are of different "physical presence"?
Thats the only rational explanation l can give to it and still make sense of what Jesus said in so many related and relevant places in the Bible.

What do you think?


Cheers,
lastpage