₦airaland Forum

« #51 on: Today at 05:22:53 AM » As Salaamualaykum WR Taala WB. Iam more interested in the Quran verse(s) and Ahadith.

The Holy Prophet enjoined us to follow his sunnah and the sunnah of the kulafa'i rashidun i.e the four guided caliphs. The four guided caliph have many several changes contrary to Prophet muhammad, such as number of subhi call to prayer, zakat offering, khutba style, divorce law, and many more. So i see no reason why you should refrain from following them and meanwhile you don't even know that some things you do were the alter of the caliph.

There Sunnah must be within the Sunnah of the Prophet(AS), and they can not come up with anything, except is in agreement with the Primary Sunnah of our Beloved Muhammad(AS). I will love to read anything that the Kulafah did that is not within the Quran and Sunnah. Was Islam not completed on Muhammad? Of course it was, and there is no room for error.

Why didn't you prefer to go on journey on foot or camel ? This is the sunnah.

It is not the Sunnah, since Muhammad (AS) travelled on Camel and the Isra wa Miraj was on Buraq, allowing us to travel whatever is the latest travelling machine. Alah saya in Surah Al Rahman which means; Penetrate the hew=aven, if you can except what permits (of knowledge) you ill be able to get to a limit.

Why do you watch Tv and radio when the Prophet never did it ?

TV or Radio neither was invented at that time, people could have used them to watch and or hear the blessed prophet.

Thats bidiah and it takes away ones time to perform ibadah,

It is not bidah and Allah revealed Surah Taha to el Muhammad that Islam (Quran) is made easy on him, telling him not to pray all night, max half of it or a little more or less. Thats even for the prophet who was commanded to make Quyan/tahajuud, and you and I can not better him in Islam.

why do you sleep on mattress ? The sunnah is to sleep on floor,

It is not Sunnah to sleep on floor, and in the time of the Prophet(AS) there were Sahabaha, men and women who had money and they work hard and they wore good clothing and they ate good food,slept on what was plush then. You cant deprive yourself of the BOUNTY of Allah, and over giving in charity is even frowned upon as Spent thrift!

why do you have one wife ? The sunnah is to have more than one,

It is no sunnah and the Farida is to marry and not go over 4 wives at any time! I dont have one wife, I more.

why do you laugh alot ? The sunnah is to cry more than the number of laugh.

You may be right here, but I do not "know" what the Prophet "knows, and thats why am not crying more than laughing. But everything is in moderation, otherwise, if you remember the sad times only then how do you function, so Allah allows forgetfulness, and of course Forgiveness, Supplication. He says that those who do good after they have done evil, as a means of seeking expiation of sin just committed.

Why do you wear trouser ? The sunnah is to use wrapper and no pants,

I wear Hizah for the most part. But then, what is to be covered must be covered and concealed. If you wear an Hizar (wrapper) that is short and covers not the Aura, what good is it?

i can go till next year mentioning the sunnah. Lets think positively and applied wisdom , why did the caliph decide to make changes, does that mean we should shun them after the Prophet said we should accept whatever they dissemilate

Give me a single Bidah (Change) that any of them made?

Qudus." And our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to Hassaan ibn Thaabit, "O Allaah, support him with Rooh al-Qudus." According to another report: "Rooh al-Qudus will be with you so long as you are defending His Prophet." Both versions are narrated in al-Saheeh.

According to the Christians, the "Holy Spirit" dwelt in the Disciples, and according to them the "Holy Spirit" is something experienced by all of the Prophets. But Allaah says in al-Nahl (interpretation of the meaning):

"Say (O Muhammad) Rooh ul Qudus [Jibreel (Gabriel)] has brought it (the Qur'aan) down from your Lord with truth, that it may make firm and strengthen (the Faith of) those who believe, and as a guidance and glad tidings to those who have submitted (to Allaah as Muslims)"

[al-Nahl 16:102]

"Which the trustworthy Rooh [Jibreel (Gabriel)] has brought down

Upon your heart (O Muhammad)"

[al-Shu'ara' 26:193]

"Whoever is an enemy to Jibreel (Gabriel) (let him die in his fury), for indeed he has brought it (this Qur'aan) down to your heart"

[al-Baqarah 2:97]

So it is clear that Rooh al-Qudus here refers to Jibreel. No one suggests that Rooh al-Qudus means the life of Allaah; nor is this indicated by the wording and this phrase is never used in that sense.

Daqaa'iq al-Tafseer, part 2, p. 92

So it is a consensus among Islamic Scholarship that the Holy Spirit is Jibreel, and this isn't just a mere opinion, the Islamic texts and sources prove this fact, the scholars didn't just make it up. For instance the Quran says this concerning the Holy Spirit:

016.102
YUSUFALI: Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims.

So the Holy spirit has brought down the Quran to the prophet Muhammad, this is non other than the angel Jibreel, this is what the Quran says concerning Jibreel:

002.097
YUSUFALI: Say: Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel-for he brings down the (revelation) to thy heart by Allah's will, a confirmation of what went before, and guidance and glad tidings for those who believe,-

So as you can see the Holy spirit can be non other than the angel Jibreel, the Holy spirit brings down the revelation which strengthens and guides the believers, the angel Jibreel brings down the revelation which strengthens and guides the believers! Hence the Holy Spirit is Jibreel and Jibreel is the Holy spirit!

So in conclusion the Holy Spirit in Islam is not God, nor a semi-God, the Holy Spirit in Islam is non other than the angel Jibreel.

And Allah Knows Best!

http://www.muslim-responses.com/



NOW GUYS YOU HAVE LOST JESUS AND GABRIEL AS GODS. TOMORROW FATHER WILL BE LOST BY SURAH IKLAS.

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said: the majority of scholars said that this refers to Jibreel (peace be upon him), and that Allaah called him al-Rooh al-Ameen, Rooh al-Qudus and Jibreel."

(Daqaa'iq al-Tafseer, part 1, p. 310)

He wrote an entire chapter on that and said:

Chapter on the meaning of Rooh al-Qudus:

Allaah said (interpretation of the meaning):

"O ?Eesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Remember My Favour to you and to your mother when I supported you with Rooh ul Qudus [Jibreel (Gabriel)]."

[al-Maa'idah 5:110]

Allaah supported the Messiah (peace be upon him) with Rooh al-Qudus as He mentions in this aayah. In al-Baqarah Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

"And We gave ?Eesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), clear signs and supported him with Rooh-ul-Qudus [Jibreel (Gabriel)]

[al-Baqarah 2:87]

"Those Messengers! We preferred some of them to others; to some of them Allâh spoke (directly); others He raised to degrees (of honour); and to ?Eesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), We gave clear proofs and evidences, and supported him with Rooh ul Qudus [Jibreel (Gabriel)]"

[al-Baqarah 2:253]

This is not limited only to the Messiah; others were also supported in this way. (The scholars) mentioned that Dawood said, "Do not stop supporting me with Rooh al-

(Remember My favor to you) when I created you from your mother, without male intervention, and made you a sign and clear proof of My perfect power over all things. d


(And to your mother) when I made you testify to her chastity and you thus absolved her from the sin that the unjust, ignorant liars accused her of,


(when I supported you with Ruh - il-Qudus) the angel Jibril, and made you a Prophet, calling to Allah in the cradle and manhood. I made you speak in the cradle, and you testified that your mother was free from any immoral behavior, and you proclaimed that you worship Me. You also conveyed the news of My Message and invited them to worship Me.

And also here is what one Sheikh writes concerning this matter:

Praise be to Allaah.

The "Holy Spirit" (Rooh al-Qudus) is Jibreel (peace be upon him). Shaykh al-Shanqeeti said: "The words of Allaah (interpretation of the meaning), ?and [We] supported him with Rooh al-Qudus' [al-Baqarah 2:87] refer to Jibreel according to the most sound view. This is indicated by the words (interpretation of the meaning): ?Which the trustworthy Rooh has brought down' [al-Shu'ara' 26:193] and ?then We sent to her our Rooh' [Maryam 19:17]."

Ibn Abi Haatim narrated from Ahmad ibn Sinaan. Abu'l-Za'raa' told us: ?Abd-Allaah said: Rooh al-Qudus ("the Holy Spirit" is Jibreel, then he said: something similar was narrated from Muhammad ibn Ka'b al-Qurazi, Qutaadah, ?Atiyah al-?Awfi, al-Saddi and al-Rabee' ibn Anas.

This view is supported by the above and by the report narrated by the two Shaykhs [al-Bukhaari and Muslim] with their isnaads from Abu Salamah ibn ?Abd al-Rahmaan ibn ?Awf, that he heard Hassaan ibn Thaabit al-Ansaari asking Abu Hurayrah to bear witness, "I ask you by Allaah, did you hear the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say, ?O Hassaan, respond on behalf of the Messenger of Allaah. O Allaah, support him with Rooh al-Qudus'?" Abu Hurayrah said, "Yes."

(al-Tafseer al-Masboor by Dr. Hikmat Basheer, 1/192-193)

The Holy Sprit, not Ghost is Malaika Jibril? Yes:

Who is the Holy Spirit In Islam? By Sami Zaatari

Just like in Christianity, we the Muslims also believe in the Holy spirit, however so our belief in the Holy spirit is quite different than the Christian belief on this matter. However so who is the Holy spirit that the Quran often refers to? :

016.102 : Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims.

005.110 : Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'

So who exactly is the Holy Spirit? Let us consult Ibn Kathir's tafsir:

Jibril is Ruh Al-Qudus

The proof that Jibril is the Ruh Al-Qudus is the statement of Ibn Mas`ud in explanation of this Ayah. This is also the view of Ibn `Abbas, Muhammad bin Ka`b, Isma`il bin Khalid, As-Suddi, Ar-Rabi` bin Anas, `Atiyah Al-`Awfi and Qatadah. Additionally, Allah said,

(Which the trustworthy Ruh (Jibril) has brought down. Upon your heart (O Muhammad ) that you may be (one) of the warners) (26:193-194).

Al-Bukhari recorded `A'ishah saying that the Messenger of Allah erected a Minbar in the Masjid on which Hassan bin Thabit (the renowned poet) used to defend the Messenger of Allah (with his poems). The Messenger of Allah said,

(O Allah! Aid Hassan with Ruh Al-Qudus, for he defended Your Prophet.)

Abu Dawud recorded this Hadith in his Sunan as did At-Tirmidhi who graded it Hasan Sahih. Further, Ibn Hibban recorded in his Sahih that Ibn Mas`ud said that the Prophet said,

(Ruh Al-Qudus informed me that no soul shall die until it finishes its set provisions and term limit. Therefore, have Taqwa of Allah and seek your sustenance in the most suitable way.)

Reminding `Isa of the Favors that Allah Granted him

Allah mentions how He blessed His servant and Messenger, `Isa, son of Maryam, and the miracles and extraordinary acts He granted him. Allah said,

Jesus son of Mary (AS) a muslim? Yes. Please read Surah Saff, below.

61:4: Verily, Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in rows (ranks) as if they were a solid structure.
61:5: And (remember) when Musa (Moses) said to his people: "O my people! Why do you hurt me while you know certainly that I am the Messenger of Allah to you? So when they turned away (from the Path of Allah), Allah turned their hearts away (from the Right Path). And Allah guides not the people who are Fasiqun (rebellious, disobedient to Allah).
61:6: And (remember) when 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), said: "O Children of Israel! I am the Messenger of Allah unto you confirming the Taurat [(Torah) which came] before me, and giving glad tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad. But when he (Ahmad i.e. Muhammad SAW) came to them with clear proofs, they said: "This is plain magic."
61:7: And who does more wrong than the one who invents a lie against Allah, while he is being invited to Islam? And Allah guides not the people who are Zalimun (polytheists, wrong-doers and disbelievers) folk.
61:8: They intend to put out the Light of Allah (i.e. the religion of Islam, this Quran, and Prophet Muhammad SAW) with their mouths. But Allah will complete His Light even though the disbelievers hate (it).
61:9: He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islamic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religions even though the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, and disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah and in His Messenger Muhammed SAW) hate (it).
61:10: O You who believe! Shall I guide you to a commerce that will save you from a painful torment.
61:11: That you believe in Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad SAW), and that you strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with your wealth and your lives, that will be better for you, if you but know!
61:12: (If you do so) He will forgive you your sins, and admit you into Gardens under which rivers flow, and pleasant dwelling in Gardens of 'Adn - Eternity ['Adn (Edn) Paradise], that is indeed the great success.
61:13: And also (He will give you) another (blessing) which you love, help from Allah (against your enemies) and a near victory. And give glad tidings (O Muhammad SAW) to the believers.
61:1: O you who believe! Be you helpers (in the Cause) of Allah as said 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), to Al-Hawariun (the disciples): "Who are my helpers (in the Cause) of Allah?" Al-Hawarieen (the disciples) said: "We are Allah's helpers" (i.e. we will strive in His Cause!). Then a group of the Children of Israel believed and a group disbelieved. So We gave power to those who believed against their enemies, and they became the uppermost.

59:11: Have you (O Muhammad SAW) not observed the hypocrites who say to their friends among the people of the Scripture who disbelieve: "(By Allah) If you are expelled, we (too) indeed will go out with you, and we shall never obey any one against you, and if you are attacked (in fight), we shall indeed help you." But Allah is Witness, that they verily, are liars.


In Surah Hashr, above verse calls the People of the Book (Jews, Christians) Disbelievers; Kafaruu. Do you want to die as disbeliever?

This isSurah Buruj, and am sure it is copied/plagiarised from the Jewish Book. No? Read the Tafsir of this Surah and see how the little boy leads his mother to Success, paradise.


85:14 : And He is Oft-Forgiving, full of love (towards the pious who are real true believers of Islamic Monotheism),
85:15 : Owner of the throne, the Glorious
85:16 : He does what He intends (or wills).
85:1: Has the story reached you of the hosts,
85:18: Of Fir'aun (Pharaoh) and Thamud?
85:19: Nay! The disbelievers (persisted) in denying (Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) and his Message of Islamic Monotheism).
85:2 : And Allah encompasses them from behind! (i.e. all their deeds are within His Knowledge, and He will requite them for their deeds).
85:21 : Nay! This is a Glorious Quran,
85:22[b]: (Inscribed) in Al-Lauh Al-Mahfuz (The Preserved Tablet)![/b]

I think the above should speak to a good heart: Note that no Muslim has gone from One God Whose Personal Name is Allah to anything else, unlike other nations juggling from Pilar to Post, between God or Gods and man. Unfortunately I listened to part of the Memoir of Late Senator Ted Kennedy of Massachussets, who wrote a letter t the pope a mere human, frail, needing water, food, shelter, and must performs all human functions otherwise he will die just like that,seeking forgiveness! Should anyone not go to HIS CREATOR for this, instead of man, in form of religious leadership or a one that holds Prophetic office like Jesus (AS) or an Angel like Gabreil whom the Christians call Holy Ghost God?

@Noetic: When Allah intended to create things, He ordered the Kalam (Pen) to take Dictations, and that was preserved in a Tablet called Ummuh Kitab (Mother of the Book; Ummuh Qura; recited), which is then placed in Lauin Maafuth in the Seventh Heaven. The Angels heard the Voice of Al Rahman, and knew the Kalam was writing things down.

It is from this BOOK that all revealed Books came from; Torah, Sabur, Injil, Suhufi Ibrahim, wa Musa, and indeed Quran. And before Quran was revealed it was taking down to the First Heaven, and when an issue or condition arises to be addressed, the part of it, that is the ANSWER is then released as commandment to Malaika Jibril, who inturn takes it to the Messenger (AS) to make it plain for the people, the Community of Believers (RA). So your statement about a revelation not older than Torah of the Jews, does not make sense because older does not mean more correct. NO? Your answer may actual sink you Christian statement about Gospel or it sinks the Old is better hypothesis; Head or Tail, you lose, both ways.

Here is the situation with the Quran, its Purity and its measure speed of revelation:


The Quran was revealed in two stages:



Stage One:

In this stage, the Quran was brought by Jibreel from the Preserved Tablet (in the Seventh Heaven) down to the First Heaven (sky) and placed in the 'Place of Power or Honor'. First, the Quran mentions the Preserved Tablets in the verse (which means):

"Nay! This is a Glorious Quran, inscribed in a Preserved Tablet" [Quran 85:21-22]

Then it tells of the fact that it was sent down during a specific night, in the verse (which means):

"By the Book that makes things clear; - We sent it down during a Blessed Night: for We (ever) wish to warn (against Evil). In the (Night) is made distinct every affair of wisdom." [Quran 44:2-4]

And (which means):

"We have indeed sent down this during the Night of Power." [Quran 97:1].

These two verses indicate that the Quran was revealed in a single blessed night in the month of Ramadhaan that is called the 'Night of Power, or Decree'.

Stage Two:

This stage of revelation lasted for about 23 years in which the Quran was sent down in response to the development of events and in accordance with the sequence needed to complete the delivery of the Message.

The Prophet after receiving revelation, would automatically memorize the Quranic verses that were revealed to him and would recite them to whomever was in his company, and order them (the Companions ) to write them down immediately. The Messenger himself used to keep a copy of the revealed portions in his house. The Quran, the last of Allaah’s Scriptures, is divided into 114 'Surahs' (Chapters) of unequal length. It is the first fundamental source of Islamic Sharee’ah (Islamic Law). Allaah, Most High, Says (what means): "… A Quran which We have given seriatim (separated out) in order that you may recite it to the people at intervals and We have caused it to come down successively (by stages)." [Quran 17:106]

But verse 6:7 observes (what means): "If We had sent unto you (O Muhammad) a written (message) on parchment, so that they could touch it with their hands, the unbelievers would have been sure to say: "This is nothing but obvious magic."' [Quran 6:7]

Recording cynical speeches of the unbelievers, Almighty Allaah Says (what means): "Why has the Quran not been vouchsafed to him (Muhammad) in one single whole?" [Quran 25:32]

And the answer to that is the verse (which means): "…that your heart (O Muhammad) may be strengthened, We have rehearsed it to you in slow, well-arranged stages, gradually." [Quran 25:32]

There is no nation that has ever cared about, revered, and preserved its Divine Scripture as the Muslim nation has cared about, revered and preserved the Quran. Unlike the other Divine Scriptures, the Quran is not kept in the hands of a particular group or elite of the Muslims, and for this reason, it is not subject to suspicion that it might have been tampered with or altered. Rather, it has always been within the reach of all Muslims.

Surah Taha, about the story of Musa at the Burning Bush; Please it, and compare it to what you find of it in the Jewish Torah and see the Superiority of it, in the Quran.

20:8: Allah! La ilahla illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He)! To Him belong the Best Names.
20:9: And has there come to you the story of Musa (Moses)?
20:10: When he saw a fire, he said to his family: "Wait! Verily, I have seen a fire, perhaps I can bring you some burning brand therefrom, or find some guidance at the fire."
20:11: And when he came to it (the fire), he was called by name: "O Musa (Moses)!
20:12: "Verily! I am your Lord! So take off your shoes, you are in the sacred valley, Tuwa.
20:13: "And I have chosen you. So listen to that which is inspired to you.
20:14: "Verily! I am Allah! La ilaha illa Ana (none has the right to be worshipped but I), so worship Me, and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat) for My Remembrance.
20:15: "Verily, the Hour is coming and My Will is to keep it hidden that every person may be rewarded for that which he strives.
20:16: "Therefore, let not the one who believes not therein (i.e. in the Day of Resurrection, Reckoning, Paradise and Hell, etc.), but follows his own lusts, divert you therefrom, lest you perish.

From Surah Hud we read the below about the Messenger Nuh (Noah) AS.

11:25 : And indeed We sent Nuh (Noah) to his people (and he said): "I have come to you as a plain warner."

11:26 : "That you worship none but Allah, surely, I fear for you the torment of a painful Day."

11:27 : The chiefs of the disbelievers among his people said: "We see you but a man like ourselves, nor do we see any follow you but the meanest among us and they (too) followed you without thinking. And we do not see in you any merit above us, in fact we think you are liars."

InshaAllah, tomorror, I will give you Lout, and Musa (AS), and only had said something aboyr Yahweh only to Moses, and here above I gave Nuh's statement to his peaople mentioning the name of his Lord.

A person whose whose body will not allow him to do it will have the full rewards. For a 70 year old man who became muslim and cant sit properly as sugested in the tashahuud position will not loose a single atom of his reward, by Allah. People can pray because they cant even do the physical prostration, as long as their heart prostrates, there is no problem.

@Z-marda: Am a busy man. I do multiple things at a time. The fact that I did not put a question mark at the end, does not distract from my statement, AbdalGhaniyy was big in Nigeria, Muhammad is BIG in whole world, through time since his Messengership, till the end of time. While the former will be a footnote in Nigerian History, say 500 years from now, Muhammad (AS) will always be dear to the hearts of believers till end of time.

Well then, if Islam was not dented by his passing, how can it be dented by the passing of a much much less of a man, AbdalGhaniyy Faweyinmi (ra)? This is what I meant and your Fraudian, not Freudian mind cant take it.

@Abuzola; What we are saying is impacting knowledge on one another or at least each other. The four Imam (ra) said that if a thing that they said is different from what Muhammad (AS) says, when you find what Muhammad says, then discard what I said, and adopt what Muhammad says, because that will be what I your Iman would have said if I knew it before I said what I said!

Neither you nor I is a scholar and the scholar will still have to agree with Muhammad otherwise, I Olabowale will throw away what that scholar says and stick with what Muhammad says.


Umar Khattab (RA) was reported to be reading Torah in the presence of the Prophet (A), who was displeased by it, and it was Abu bakr who let Umar knew that the Prophet was not happy about Umar's reading of Torah, and the prophet assembled the people and informed them that if Musa was to be alive and know about my messengership he will ahve to follow me, Muhammad as his leader, a statement that confirms the Ayah in Surah Imran or Nissa about the prophets taking Oaths to support Muhammad if he were to arrive in their lifetime.

My saying this therefore is simply to say, we can disagree, at worst both of are wrong , and at best one of us is completely correct and there is no way that we could be both right, since we take opposite views, and I have presented my views with Verses from the Quran and have qualified the ahadith you may use to justify your statement, but please present a single VERSE from the Quran because I want to learn.


May Allah reward you and guide all of us. Amin.

@KunleOshob: « #132 on: Today at 04:50:02 PM »
Quote from: olabowale on Today at 02:43:16 PM
I wanted to know if Yahweh, or Jehovah or Eloi was ever used by any people, before Abram left your? To my surprise no one is addressing that, except in the bigDictionaries, they just sprang to Bible verses, as if that was the very first it was used, and how was the first person who used it in the Bible informed of this? This issue was not addressed, yet wikipedia has the time to tell us about the pagan arabs, bur fails to tell us about the pagan hebrew whose community Abram settled in and adopted their hebrew language as his own!

But in the Quran, Angel Gabreil (AS) told Muhammad the name of the Creator as Allah.
Now who told "Who" in the Bible Old Testament or New Testament that the Creator is Jehovah, or Yahweh or Eloi?
KunleOshob, Noetic, etc these are assignemnts for you guys. You must show us these things. Otherwise your arguments wil be all a rouse and your accusation will not merit any responss.
[b]Exodus 3:4-6:

4And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

5And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.

6Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.



Exodus 6:3:
3And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.




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Re: The Price Is Only Belief/faith In One Single God, Without Parnership. Buy It Low
« #133 on: Today at 04:54:21 PM »

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Psalm 83:18
That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

Isaiah 12:2
Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.[/b][quote][/quote]Please give me your earlest Biblical usage and I know that you cant explain the earliest usage of Yahweh, Jehovah, Eloi, English word (God) better without going to the Bible, especially the OT, since it came before the NT used by Christians, and the Jews dont recognize it!

When you give me your earliest Biblical usage, I will better it or at least match it directly. Let me say this to you, I will show you that Allah Himself spoke to the Angels, saying He intends to create "Viceroy/An Ambassador" to the earth, meaning the first man (Adam), and He Allah created Iblis/Shaitan before it.


And when I better it, or at least equals it, then whatever you apply in derogative statement to Allah, will apply to Jehovah, Yahweh, Eloi (Based on Jesus saying on the Biblical cross), etc. Deal?

I wanted to know if Yahweh, or Jehovah or Eloi was ever used by any people, before Abram left Ur? To my surprise no one is addressing that, except in the bigDictionaries, they just sprang to Bible verses, as if that was the very first it was used, and how was the first person who used it in the Bible informed of this? This issue was not addressed, yet wikipedia has the time to tell us about the pagan arabs, bur fails to tell us about the pagan hebrew whose community Abram settled in and adopted their hebrew language as his own!


But in the Quran, Angel Gabreil (AS) told Muhammad the name of the Creator as Allah.

Now who told "Who" in the Bible Old Testament or New Testament that the Creator is Jehovah, or Yahweh or Eloi?

KunleOshob, Noetic, etc these are assignemnts for you guys. You must show us these things. Otherwise your arguments wil be all a rouse and your accusation will not merit any responss.

@KunleOshob:

@Noetic
thanx for this expose i had always assumed that allah was the the same as the abrahamic God, and that differences occured over time through cultural diversity, but now i kow better. There is no way the Almighty God would assume the name of a pagan god.

From your name, Oshob(u) you are in Ijesha man, right? Oshobu is a name that the Ijeshas bear long before Christianity, or the younger Islam! Do Muslims and Christians and even others of Ijesha bloodline still bear this name, today even with the difference in Religion? Yes.

You are a yoruba man; Go ask any older yoruba man who knows more than you when it comes to the Tribal heritage history of the Yorubas. Such a man or woman will tell you that Olorun, Eledumare, Oluwa, etc are to denote the Creator, Whom the pre Christian and Muslim era of yoruba religionists; aborishas, aboogun, aboshaogos, etc use to talk to through their individual middle gods.

Same situations with the arabs and their 360 idols and gods, which did not any idol named allah!


And when Christianity entered Yorubaland, the convert to the new religion did not change the name Olrun, Oluwa, Eledumare, etc for the rebranded Creator through Christianity, the Creator remained, except now they do not go through Ogun, Oya, Oshun, Shongo, etc, but by Jesus and or Holy Ghost. This is why Kunle and all of you Christians are rebranded pagans in my view.


Lets go to the arabs; When Muhammad (AS) rebranded allah to Allah, he (AS) destoyed everything else, moon godship, sun godship, desert godship, mountain godship, star godship, etc and the famous three gods who you guys call the daughters of allah. So Allah emerged, with any image, just like when the pagan says allah. But Allah emerges in addition without having no son, casual, honored or begets; like the others, including Jews of Uzair, and the Christians of Jesus! Finally, the 360 idols were completely destroyed not only in comcepts that started from the very first 5 ayah of revelation, but physically throwing them down and crushing them up!

This is in the tradition of Abraham, who did the same with his peoples idols, leaving the largest with the ax on his neck and mocking the people as he said its the big one that did it, with the physical ax on its neck, a physical evidence for his argument! It is threfore Islam that adopts the manners of Abraham by deeds and actions, while you, KunleOshob, Noetic and other patrons abandoned Abraham and his way of worship. Could you there fore be worshipping the same God as he did? The answer is no because you still cling to paganic ideas having to have gods instead of God. Use English Language to fool yourself, you are not fooling me.


A yoruba man in your great grandparents village, if he were to be alive today will not say God, but will say Olorun, and he and the Queen will mean the same Creator in different languages! Tis is the way that anyone with good sense of Judgement will look at it.

If Allah of the Muslims is not God in English language, so shall be Olorun of the Yorubas, and the Eloi or Elohim, or Jehovah or Yahweh of the various Semitic people including the Hebrew which Jesus is from.


But Jesus said Eoi and not God, or Jehovah, or yahweh? Whats up with that?

z murda: Whether you are christian or not, as long as you are not a muslims, you are a Kufar. There are two classes of people; Muslims and nonMuslims.

No one is winning, its not a duel, but a dialogue to have understands. Islam remained and did not end because of the death of the prophet (AS) and definitely, Islam will be destroyed this time that a lesser man in the person of AbdalGhaniyy dies.

@3Spade3: Your above post has good meaning if only you apply to everyone; Curse of God fell and fall on those who disobeyed and disobey God! So do the Jews, Christians, Hindus, etc or Muslims obey God, the One TRUE God? Not all groups, except One. So the Christians will say the Jews dont obey, the reason they will claim that Jesus was sent.

Do the Christians obey? This is my question. My argument will centre around Jesus commandment as the Messenger of God to the Israelites. Jesus said that he came not to abolish the laws and the prophets before him. He came to fulfill themas to reestablish them with the religious and daily lives of the Israelites, so he warned that no one should abolish or suggest even the abolishment of the laws and the prophets, not even a small detail of it, as small as a jot. Whosoever does the or suggest the abolishment will be the least in the Kingdom of heaven; definitely lower than all the other levels in the Kingdom of Heaven, so I will suggest that the least here means "Hell Fire" unless somebody can point me to something different, and the argument have to be very sound!

So Christians now have abolished the Laws and the Prophets, against the statement of Jesus the earthly master that they claim for themselves, so is the Christian CURSE because they disobey God? Yes they do because they dispbeyed God's elect, Jesus.


And if I look at it from the Christians point of view, saying that Jesus is god, then will the Christians be less blameless compared to the Jews in the cursed conditions because of disobedience to God? No it should be of greater consequence;

The Jews did not see their God, yet their disobedience make them cursed.

The Christians see their god walking the streets among them and died in from of them saying it is finished, yet they disobeyed him! They deserve the same level of curse as the Jews, at least, I think it should be the highest, if yo ask me.

Davidylan; Did I threaten you? I even ask you to perform the Murky water experiments at Sunset, you have refused every minute of each sunset and now summer is dying down, probably intending to do it in winter; uhm?

About the Trinity with three apples, or even the Irish Shamrock leaf; when I heard that one, I said the proponent of it did not pay attention that what happens to w partly munched up by bugs' shamrock or the one that is intentionally damaged; a good example to explain Christian God?

I am reading Surah Taha, and Verses 115 through 121 give the way Ibls who later became Shaitan displayed openly his envy against Adam and later was able to make Adan and his bride go against the commandment as to the three (Shajara), and later how the seek forgiveness which was accepted by them, the reason that we do not have original sin in Islam, even our nature is the same exact nature as of them; Adam and Hawa.

But it is important to know that Christianity is completely silent on seeking of and getting forgiveness by Adam and Hawa, instead Adam blamed Eve and they were both cursed. This even in the Bible is written completely different and I wonder how could Quran's story be different if plagiarized and plausible, since we expect God to forgive us, completely expressed in the Quran, different from the Bible's you must be punished regardless of your ignorance, without a taintness of any forgiveness?

To dislike a Sunnah is to me a sign of disbelief. I may not all sunnah, but to dislike or hate it is a sign leading to the essence of hypocracy. I will not marry my cousin nor will marry a woman who I am a friend or close to her former husband. I do not dislike either, so those who do them I do frawn against their action, different things under Sharia and Sunnah for different people.

« #36 on: Today at 05:10:22 AM »
You keep pointing to royal family, why not use the masses as an example. Leaders ve privilege so don't expect them to do things in the way you want them, jihadist have targeted them likewise the 3 caliphate umar, usman and Ali they were assasinated. A leader has privilege due to many reason. You keep mentioning shaving of beard, keeping the beard is sunnah and not obligatory so i don't see why you should force it on those who do not like it due to some reason.

The royal family is the face of Islamic Saudi, just like yar Adua is that of Nigeria, and the Emirs in the northern towns and cities are that of their towns, etc, applying that to those who claim that they are truly muslims, a husband, then wife, then children are the faces of their family/household's Islam.

The Jihadist did not kill Umah, it was a hypocrite who did and you will not say that the Shahidun as the prophet (AS) predicted about Umar and Ali while they were climbing the hill which was shaking, is in the same conditions with the Al saud people or are you saying that, when they with other arabs in the Gulf with the support from England and her champion "Lawrence of Arabia", destroyed the last kalifah of Islam, (Othoman Turk's)! Hypocrites are different frm real believers; Umar, Uthman, Ali are true believers, and say what you want of the Al saudi's.


I remember a documentary here in year ago, where the house of saudi overrode the muslim scholars and scientist from allowing an american Ice Cream company to sell vanilla flavors that they used alcoho to extract; this is real islam or hypocracy? I think the minister who overrode the scholars, scientist was Turaki Faisal. I remember he said that his son was a student in Spain when he said that "Fatwa."

it is Allah that said a male inheritance is the half for the female, a woman cannot bear witness except with more witness contrary to man, etc so don't be deceived by the law of the unbelievers, human right is nothing but free will to go against God's will, if every man will do according to his desire surely he will go astray, kudos to saudi, sharia law is regarded as old school law and barbaric.

it is the inheritance of female that is half of male children and the condition is that the man should still support his woman with his wealth, inheritance. And since women are more emotional that men this is the reason that they double in the number of witnesses to equal that of man, and not because they are inferior in deen; all that is recommended in Ibadah, etc is equal in man's and woman's duties as believers. No one has piety because of gender, none at all and Allah says that it is not His Intention to force any into belief, so it is the free will to choose that separate the believers from the the free willing disbelief. Human right is very essential in Islam, please tell me if its against Islam:

A woman who wears short pant, or long or neither under Hijab is no more a believer if she does all the things of belief? A man who indulges in all bad things privately and has a public face of a great believer is truly better, or he is a hypocrite?

I will not take the outlook to mean the essence of the strength of belief, but it is the beard that announces the man as a muslim, just like Hijab and kimar for women; both are aboundant in the USA I know. I know many odf the Al Saud people and many from Saudi become better in USA. And every ahadith is with conditions; Masjid Haram with Zamzam is in Makka and it is not Makkan that helps a person by the ahadith, but the things that are in the city.

The people of Madina are more measured than Makkans. Some day we will return to the "ahadith of Aisha (RA)" to find out if the came from her and whether they are even to be lassified as ahadith and to say that they are sahih. This is after I read your view by Quran verses and Ahadith to support the kilings of "apostates" just because they left Islam.

But am waiting for the Quranic Verses and Ahadith that support the Killing of Apostates.

Am sure you are against bin laden and his men for fighting on behalf of the palestine, this is the main reason why i wouldn't love to be in the west, they charm one ultimately, how can you even think America is better than somalia talk of yemen, my friend laughed when i told him your view.

My opinion about Osama bin Laden is that I do not know too much about his "Truth". What this means is that he is not the Kalifah of Islam, hence cant declare war on "enemy of Islam", if is any society that is one, right now, and you need to know the "characteristics of Enemy" from Quran and Sunnah (just not being a muslim and or dislike Islam, is enough to say that a person is an enemy), and the methology of fighting is well defined in Quran and Sunnah (no foul and unIslamic way(s) is allowed), because the end is not a justification for any all types of means. And a true believer should speak the truth even when it may be against himself and finally am on the side of Muhammad (AS), and no other, hence you do not selective support a group while you do not of others in similar condition.

« #10 on: Yesterday at 10:49:09 PM »  
the late kings of Jordan and Morocco both had delayed burials. Blame it on Christianity or whatever- both kings were Muslim.

The late Ayatollah's burial was delayed for at least one or two days.

I remembered the King of Jordan donning the Jewish "Kapi" at Rabib's funeral saying that the Jewish guy is with his own "Hussaine's" father; I asked myself Islamic Paradise, or The Hell, or maybe Jewish Heaven, similar to other peoples, definitely differnt from Muslim's Paradise, or is it the Jewish Hell?

Moroccan's late King, by account of many noted Islamic scholars of Morocco bloodline, they say he was the best, some even going as far as saying that he has Jewish blood and attitude towards the Muslims, his fellow citizens. I will leave the case of Ayatullah aside because I am not a shia.

nothing new under the sun.

Whats new under the nigerian's sun is a believer directive gives directive that shun the particular elements of belief! Why will a dead believer wants to remain away from Paradise, hanging around the earth and its inhabitants which he no part of any longer?

O sho son Monday. Abi aaro shi ni? Nkon to ba wu e ni ko fe nu e so. Pele.

thanks for reviving why are you a muslim. But we are talking about the same thing there. No? So there is a double thread for the same thing. So I stick with this one.

If you run out of steam (fuel, power, etc) then we will continue with it anyhow because it is bigger than yo, noetic. Islam is for everyone and this is not reel you in, and you are free not to pay attention, since you have it in a short burst only. I noticed that you gert tired quickly ad loose interest so as fast.

Make sure that your wife does not notice that in you, when you get married, because the resultant outcome is fire in the house when you walk in.

Ogbon Muhammad (AS) laa nko e yen. Iyan tio ba ni Iyawo o le koo enikonkon bi won she nda iyawo lorun, kaa mu inu iyawo dun son ju kaa gbemi e gbona! Ati ara o roo okun ara o roo adiye.

Allah says that we human reach "piety" of Allah. Muhammad (AS) said the different between everyone, White and Black, Arab and no Arab is only by Piety of Allah. I dont want to be royal arab, am royal Yoruba, but whats the use of carrying it, when it may debars me from entering jannah?

All muslims will be shoulder to in prayer, the royal saudis take the same shahadah I take, make the same salah, make the same zakat; Fitr and Al mal, same Saum, same hajj, and I do not see any difference. But lets leave that alone, and if it is head count that determines Islam, malaisia is far better than Saudi.

What Saudi has for itself is the Sacred Pricincts: Makka and madina and the Royals live in Riyhad. What a pretty choice to make.

And as in quality, it will be rare to see a white or black or spanish etc, home grown american muslims drinking alcohol, cruising the red light districts, compared to what the royal arabs are noted for doing, the reasons the non muslims take them to be using one law for the masses and another for themselves, just like the nigerian powerful Muslims, and Yar'Adua never grows a single strand of beard that he did not see fit to shave; Emir of kano, Zaria, Kaduna, etc and Babangida (Evil genius he calls himself), so Abdal Salaam grew a beard, and the souther muslims are not better either!


Muslims in America wear the Hizah (the male wrapper) in summer and winter, in this United States, and about my wife, if I was in Nigeria, I would probably be married to a whatever goes Muslim, and maybe I want to marry another tribe, my not being from them will be used against me, and my islam will be shunned.


Abuzola, america and islam are perfect together, and it will take less time to make many accept islam than the struggle of tribal differences that is a stumbling block for nigerians, and we do not have any of those here. We help one another and it is a community of brotherhood; one ummah.


And by the way Saudi, Kuwait, Jordan, etc help destroy their own brother "Iraqis, palestinians, etc" Even a bad or weak Islam should be better than Kufr, you said? Then what role has the saudi played in supporting their brothers and sisters in the Middle East against Israel and her supporters?

Muhammad (AS) and Abu bakr (RA) before revelation used to help wayfairers, support the weak against the powerful, and the Arabs, indeed the powerful and influentials among them join in, time and time to support others to beat down their own Muslim brothers and Sisters in other countries. Go read about the First Iraqi war in 1991 and see how the Kuwaiti put on a show by the young daughter of the ambassador stationed in DC. And now they are beating the drums of war against Iran as if there is no Sunni in there, no?

But am interested in te Verses and ahadith that support killing of apostates.

the difference between my death and yours is that I am hopeful and longing to meet my Lord, while according to you, you want to begin in incineration right from death; I wonder what Jesus will say about that. Suddenly a Jesus moment.


Allah will recreate you anew for Judgement day, and it is easy for Him! And hellfire is real, but you can call it lake of fire, but it burns and its made to punish severely!

@Abuzola; « #31 on: Today at 04:30:50 AM »

@olabowale- are you talking of the america i know and see on Tv is better than saudi ? Haba you know thats not true, saudi arabia is incompatible, how can a sharia state be better than non sharia, where you see unclothedness, misguided and do acts according to their desire. Saudi arabia is an ahlu sunnah doctrine. You can find out more on who are ahlu sunnah, the Quran and hadith is what they follow and anything other than that is bidiah. You can't sit in america and say you are better than saudian thats not true, do your wife cover her body from head to toe i.e nikaf, do your trouser reach the ankle, is your wife accompanied by a muharam when she goes out, do ydo do do do as many as possible

America you know and see on TV is not America, thats glamour, made for show and movies, hollywood glitters. We have neighborhoods, homes, steets, corner stores, villages, small towns, big towns, cities and mega cities, and yes urban and rural, backwaters.

Saudi says they have sharia. I say they do not have "True Sharia!" If they do you will not have injustices, oppressions of foreign workers, etc, and Sunnah practices will not be almost a strange thing with them, since even the King does not wear full beard but only a goatie. Take for example, where is it said that Women should not be educated like Men; Quran or Ahadith? Neither! Muslim women that I know, living in Islamic communities cover as Allah commands in Surah Ahzab and Nikab is not a Fard but only to the wives of the Prophet (AS), and we do not have Aisha or Hafsah, etc (RA our mother on earth today, just like we are not the Prophet (AS) hence we can marry a woman from the Book, still practicing her religion, and it was the prophet who cant except unless she becames a muslim, and Allah did not a person have to accompany a grown woman to anywhere, neither did the prophet say that, please show me because everything has a condition. Even Shahadah has a condition; its not just saying I believe, but have to rid the heart of other things.

As a woman she can wear all of the above or nothing under, and she will still be correct as long as the outer garment conceal all that is supposed to be concealed. And we have men in America who will shame the King of Saudi Arabia, whose family The Al Saud named a "Free Land, the Land of Islam after themselves! Is that Sharia or Sunnah because Muhammad (AS) has the first right of rfusal, NO?" And it is only in America I have donned the Pant that most Nigerian youth call "Bonfo"! And we have plenty of people wearing it; america is the early days of madina, in the muslim communities and in a general sense the early days of Islam in Makka.

And please note that Allah says "Muslims" and nothing else. No Alhu Sunnah or nothing. Muhammad (AS) did not say anything about Alhu Sunnah. Alhul Bait is in Quran and Muhammad (AS) mentioned it, as he covered himself with them under a cover and make Supplication to Allah, and then Challenenged the peopel as per Quran's command "Say to them call yourselves and let them call themselves, , , and supplicate to Allah calling His Wrath up the liar group."


Abu bakr's Hizah used to drag and he asked the prophet if he was going to the fire because of this, and the prophet responded negetive, that the conditions for it are two; intentionally leaving it very long, and doing it to show pride, because Qaruun of Egypt Fir'awn court (Lana) used to do it, so were the Abu jahal, etc of Makaa (Lana).


If I live in Nigeria's north or south, I will be rotten as a muslim rigt this minute, chasing after skirts, calling women Ashewo, nt because I know their history, and they may even be muslim virgins, but just because I am intending to malign them. And I was told that some people will refuse to let a people lead them in Salah just because of their tribe and nothing else; how is the islam in Nigeria?


In America that I know even Muhammad, a hausa from Kano, and Muhammad Shehu who is from Kaduna have both been very improved in their deen! There is no sharia society on earth, we have pretenders, and you know it because you only have to open the Quran and see that they are not really practicing it!


But I want you to give me the verses and ahadith of the Killing of Apostates, please.

I think z murda and noetic should write their will to incude no burials at all, or may donated for science? you will long but your days shall come and rapture is just that; a conversation.

@z-murda: « #109 on: Today at 03:12:23 PM »  

Quote from: olabowale on ToMr Olabowale, its a debate. Please do you care to summarize what you've written - I think it's only fair for us interested in this.

It's like you copied and pasted some long treatise which I really don't care to break my head to read.

You just have to break you head, and  grin and bear it while you go through it. Islam is not watered down. This is the Tafsir of what I am using to see Good Product, while you guys failed to market your already eaten by BUGS.

Too verbose. The essence of this debate (I presume) is to communicate and get your points across, not to wear anyone out with the sheer weight of your diatribes.

Noetic, if I ever pass by London again, I'll buy you a pint.

Thanks in advance

Get him drunk. he needs it, drown him up and damage his liver. This is what friendship is all about?



Now am waiting to here what you have to say for which God? If you look above, you will see Allah Identifies Himself as 1God and no partnership, so trinity is dead.

@Noetic: « #105 on: Today at 02:55:40 PM »  

is there any point in the above? let me ask u the following questions

Yes. It shows that Jesus was not as meek as you said he was, the reason the "Fighting Verses" after he left!

a. who did Jesus kill during His earthly ministry?

Who did George Bush Killed? Or who did Cheney killed? Who did Rumfeld killed? Who did Fir'awn killed?

b. who did Jesus kill after His resurrection?[/quot]A person who has not died cant resurrect. His Lord said he did not die, yet and was not killed in crucifixion.

c. who did the disciples of Jesus kill?. . . ,  . .namely peter, James, Johen, Bathelomew e.t.c ?

Some doubted him, some denied knowing him, some betrayed him. Is there a reason that these are people who could stand and be counted? Talk is cheap, man.

d. who did the first converts kill in the name of Christ? who did Stephen and barnabas kill?

You can now claim Barnabas the same one you rejected his Gospel as fraud, without being able to defend your opinion. The way the Bible is, nothing is beyond whitewash! If Sword was required by the master and the fighting verses, above after, should anyone doubt that at the right time, they will kill mercilessly, overkil I mean? If they dont do it, it is because they do not have the opportunity and the means, the motive is always there!

e. who did latter converts like Paul kill in the name of Jesus? who did the gentiles kill in the name of Jesus?. . . . . . .your answers to these questions are eargerly awaited.

When you have covered and denier and betrayer in the mist, what do you expect. From your Bible, they seemed to have no spine, even though they were told to buy SWORDS, almost to be naked, because they had a little even from the beginning yet they still have to sell almost all!? It seems to me that the intention was a do or die bloodbath was intended, except that the opponent were formidable and will crush the "little in faith" who could not handle major info, yet, the reason they were promised "ANOTHER COMFORTER!"

Even an illiterate knows that the catholic killing of protestants was politically motivated and has no place in christiandom,  . . otherwise
a. who is being killed today by the catholics?

And the palestinians are fighting for what now, considering that there are Christians among the PLO heavy weights?

b. who have the pentecostals killed in the name of Jesus?

Christians are now discriminating against one another. It will not wash with me. Go and see the list of videos on Youtube about Christian missionary atrocities, you will see George Bush saying its crusade all over again and when John Ashcrost says that their God sends his son while the Muslim God tell you to send your sons, and funny enough it is the Christians that are killing to excess, more than an eye for an eye, but the life just for a slap, it seems.

c. why is killing/murder heavily condemned in christianity?. . ,  . . .I am also awaiting your answers to these.

You from right side of the mouth condemns it, but from the left side of the mouth ask that it be carried out. Its called hypocracy, and the Christians over kill in any war and no one group can match them in the way they oppress people!