₦airaland Forum

Mullah is excatly Mallah (of Northern Nigeria). The variation is based on accent/particular tongue. In reality the word is maala or something like that, from the Quran. You can read Surah Hud, Ambiyya, Qasas, and others to find out.

Maala for our purpose, simply means "elders, or leaders". It does not mean such a leader or elder is the most knowledgeable. It simply means that he, always male has some age or other societal advantage over the person who addresses him so. Sheikh with the arab is almost like that. Its not necessarilty based on knowledge.

The reason am saying this is that I can not see a person whose heart is in agreement with the truth of what his soul had already acknowledged, after Allah had created Adam will say that he has another illah than Allah! Mark you this acknowledgement by the soul was before Hawa, the mate of Adam was created. It is long time before any other humans was then processed by Kun (Be) to come to earth!

It is the fact that my soul is alive before Hawa and indeed long time before the children of Adam (AS) and his wife Hawa, their children, and all the generations after them, then Idris (AS) and then Noah, then Ibrahim, then Jesus that I say without "half stepping/no reservation" that before Jesus long time I was!

A man who abandoned Allah for Jesus as $Osisi have stated is a man who have in a similitude abandoned Allah for Ogun, Sango, Oya, etc. You take your pick. They will all go to hell fire. It is something already been decreed. And Allah's way (Sunnah) is never changing. Allah, unlike Jehovah or Yahweh will not say to a group to follow a path (like when it is said to the Children of Israel in times of old, before Jesus that He is One single Lord God) and then to the same group at a later time to follow a completely different path (Like when it is said to the same Children of Israel in the time after or during (it is after, if you read the New Testament, since fallacies are mixed with any truth) Jesus prophetic era that He is now 3 persons, each independent of the others Lord God)!

This will mean that in the day of Judgement, the dead Children of Israel before the era of Jesus will be expecting One God Lord to be their Judge. The Children of Israel under Jesus prophetic era, and indeed those (Christians around the world) whom Jesus did not see fit to preach to, and called their kinds "dogs" in relationship to the free "Jews" who he preached to, will be expecting 3 different persons God! I wonder if these Gods will fuse together or in separate bodies? Will tis not be a classic, a confusion of the highest order?

Such a confusing God is no REAL GOD! This is why it is surprising, assuming that $Osisi's presentation has any merit (I think not) that a man who has the highest form of salvation, forgiveness, mercy, grace from a Real God will fall for a fake! What will make a man walk away from good and wholesome Reality? The same reason a person with good and noble spouse will opt for indiscretions like adultery! And worse they commit their adultery with  prostitutes or somebody in their gender! You wonder aloud; why?!

And they say they do not discriminate.

Incidentally, you $Osisi went to Secondary School in the North. Thats according to you. In all your 5 years in High School, etc, no one forced you. No Muslim even gave you the face. But in the maintime, you found ways to kick the water kettle and march on the prayer mat of Senior Yemisi/Kemi. You never told us that she punished you because of either of those things. Yet, up to ths minute you are still bitter that she was dutiful to her Creator even then!

Do you blind yourself to the atrocities of the Christians while your sight is better than 20/20 when it comes to Islam? Again, if Islam is meant to kill nonMuslims, could there ever remain a Christian, a Jew or any other among the muslims, during the glory days of Islam, in the larger Middle East, or in Spain, which was ruled for almost 800 years?

By the way, you need to see the youtube videos of Christian missionary atrocities. All you have to do is Utube it!

Religion is not by force! Thats why i no dey force you. I think you wear hijab and nikab secretly. You are too obsessed with Islam. Maybe you should just it on an go out. The most difficult is the first time. From there onward it is easy street. It reminds me: Who is afraid of Virginia Wolfgang? I wonder what the christian dominated East do to their Muslim minority? Thank Allah my sweetie is no where near there.

@Noetic2: « #28 on: Yesterday at 11:07:21 PM »

Quote from: olabowale on Yesterday at 09:34:37 PM
Don't laugh too hard, yet, until you think for a critical moment by asking yourself and answering the following qusetions:

From Adam to Jesus; is there a prophet who has no instructions to worship The Creator?

None of them. They were all asked to worship GOD.

My question and your answer and both left intact for people to see how delutional humans can be.

Quote
Was Jesus a Prophet?

Jesus is GOD the son. John 10: 30 "I and the Father are one."

My first question listed Jesus as a prophet, like other prophets. You didn't break into pieces, since you know that he was listed in the company of noble people. But Allah allows by your silence in the acceptance ofhis prophetic condition brought out the truth. Te believers read your statement and see the truth, separately from the mixture of the lies you are trying to overwhelm us with.

All of a sudden, now in the question immediately above, since I isolated Jesus, he miraculously becomes God the son! Which one is he; God or the son of God, since there is no man/male who is son and father all roll in one? No man mounts his mother while he is the son of the same mother. Or are you the husband of a woman in england, while you are also the son of the woman? I am only responding to your entry; John 10:30, literally. By the way, any verse of the Bible that opposes the posibility that Jesus is a god, will render the Bible corrupt, unsure, hence John 10:30, is unreliable.

Lets try the verse in Mark, which says that Jesus stated that him and his audience have the same single Lord God. How about all his prayers in the garden of Geshemane? How about his cry on the cross; My God, my God, ? I hope you don;t think he was talking about himself? Are you familiar with the yoruba statement :won ro wipe were ni (They think he is a madman)? Only people who are screwed up in the head talk to himself.

Quote
Was Jesus exempted from worshipping his Creator, while Adam, Noah, Ibrahim, Moses, etc were required to worship the Creator?
Jesus Himself was the creator. John 1:3-4
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

Did God take permission from him, before he started to create? Is there a direct verse in the Bible, the OT or NT that we can check? What you have put forward is blasphamous, to say the least. If Jesus was the Creator, would there be a need for him to tell himself about his intent to create man? Creating "Through" gives us the indication that he was not the Creator, but at best and if the statement is true (not true), he was only a medium. For an entity to be the Creator and at the same time the entity through all things are made is very confusing.

Let me help you; GM makes automobiles. Through Steel/metals, etc GM makes automobiles. Which one is Jesus, Steel/metal or GM? He can't be he two at the same time.

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If Jesus worshipped his Creator, then in what religion methodology did he follow?
When Jesus prayed, He prayed to GOD the father . . . not because He had to, but so that we may learn to pray.
He taught us to say the Lord's prayer. . . . I am sure even u know that.

Am not a christian and frankly I don't care for Christianity. But since we are discussing Christianity, if all you have to do, as it is what Jesus taught you is the Lord's prayer, how long does it take to say it, that you waste 1 hour or more in the church? Such a read that will take 2 minutes, tops, does not need 1 hour plus in the church to say. Or does it? Did Jesus teach you to sing and clap, too? OR you made that up just to make your saying the Lord's Prayer seem rich and worth while? If Jesus stated that its the Lord's prayer that is sufficient, I did not read his name in it. And how convenient that you ignore his injuction about the Laws and the prophets of Old!

Is your attention to Jesus commandment a selective one? Accepting some and rejecting others? I do not want to spend too much time on you, because it is my honest opinion that you may not be a person who reflects. Sorry. Thats my opinion.

What will you pay as a reward, if there is Asia, the wife of the pharaoh who perished in the sea? Remember that your Bible didn't mention anything about the outcome of the body of the drowned Pharaoh. Or did it? What? Am waiting! David this is a simple Faith challenge. Your destiny with God depends on it. Don't be afraid. Okay.

While the Quran said that Pharaoh body was thrown out on the beach/shore, rejected, and will be a sign to future generations about the end of an evil man, the Bible is deficient on anything except that he died in the sea! Islam mentioned Harman as a chief Engineer in the court of Pharaoh, your Bible didn't mentioned anything about him.

Since then, there is a statue erected with the name Harman, in Germany. And you know what? The Germans say the Harman is an ancient Egyptian engineer! You need to look it up.

David, coming back to your challenge; unless you will finally renounce Christianity and accept Islam, you will be wasting my time, this time around. In 2006, 2007 and sometimes last year, you failed to stand up to your commitment. In 2009, you have to be sincere if you want to hear the truth. Islam is complete while Muhammad (AS) was still alive. Islam does not need post Muhammad. You need Paul after Jesus for anything to make sense. Thats how you came up with Trinity, etc!

When you are ready, Allah Willing, some truth will come to you. Go ask the Egyptians. They know about Asia. They know that Asia is the wife of the tyrannical pharaoh who perished in the sea. Ask even a Christian Egyptian. The Egyptians are at least honest. They are mostly Muslims, yet they are sincere that Pharaoh is from them. Pharaoh is one of the most evil persons in human history.

Many people in Yorubaland are named Asiyawu. I gues the yorubas don't know jack. You are Yoruba, too. No wonder you don't know diddley! But wait, Asia, Asiya, Asiyawu is a common name in Islam.

David, don't worry yourself. The name belongs to Islam and not Christianity! Let me help you to understand: In the time of Prophet Lut (I am sure you don't believe that Lut was a prophet. A major difference between Islam and your religion or way (lol)), his wife perished with those people who perished. Now if a wife of a prophet (a holy man) is found on the side of evil deeds, then is it not also possible that a wife of an evil man like pharaoh will actually be found on the side of goodliness? That woman was Asiya! Seriously. Duuh.

Don't laugh too hard, yet, until you think for a critical moment by asking yourself and answering the following qusetions:

From Adam to Jesus; is there a prophet who has no instructions to worship The Creator?
Was Jesus a Prophet?
Was Jesus exempted from worshipping his Creator, while Adam, Noah, Ibrahim, Moses, etc were required to worship the Creator?
If Jesus worshipped his Creator, then in what religion methodology did he follow?
Was that methodology different from that of Adam, Noah, Ibrahim to name just a few?
Was Jesus the Creator of heavens and earth, including the Angel Gabreil who was sent to assist him in time of difficulties?
Was Jesus the Creator of Adam, etc?
Wouldn't it foolish, if Jesus was and then in the Bible narration of creation of man, we read that he would be telling himself what he was about to do?
If Jesus worshipped his Creator as we read that the did, even prayed to him, alone and thought his companions how to worship the Creator, did he worship as the Jews do today, by bopping their face toward the "wailing wall?"
Is the religion of Adam, Noah, Ibrahim, Moses, even Jesus that they worshipped their Creator by still consistently available to us today?
What is the name of that religion?
Is God the Creator not consistent in His way and reliably unchanging God?
Is the religion Judaism?
Is there anything called Jewish people in the time of Moses, since they are called Israelites or Children of Israel?
Was Jew or Judaism ever in existence until the Children of Israel nations were broken down to Israel and Judea?
Is the religion Christianity?
Was Christianity even a religion until after Jesus was "lifted up" by his Creator?
Were Adam, Noah, Ibrahim, etc of the Jewish religion or was it the Christian religion?

I will leave Islam out of it for now. But I will remind everyone that Islam simply means "Submission to the Will of the Creatoor, in worship, etc". Ibrahim's statement in Surah An Am (Chapter 6, one of the last 5 verses) comes to mind.

Instructions left by Jesus, you asked?
Did he say that he should be worshipped, along with his Creator?
Did he say that people should pray to his Mother as the Catholics do?
Did he say that he is God, which will tell us that there are more than 1 gods?
Did he say that he was the Creator, too, which means that there are more than 1 Creator?

There is the instruction, according to the Bible that Jesus said: I am not here to abolish but to fulfill the Laws and the prophets. And any who does or suggest anyone to do so, is the least in heaven.

What is the actual meaning of that statement of Jesus, except it is an instruction? Please, noetic no chaotic explanation or interpretation. We can read english. It is simple and direct instruction.

Did you, the Christian body ever follow this instruction, ever, I said?
Did you not take the statement of Paul and company to overcome that of Jesus, whereby you destroyed the laws and the prophets instead of fulfilling them?

Now when you finish answering these sets of questions, you can laugh hard at yourself, if you still remain a christian.

Did Jesus have a religion? Yes. Proof: He prayed and worshipped in the same way John and his father Zachariah worshipped. If he was different from them, he would have corrected them, or they corrected him. They worshipped in the same way that Moses worshipped. They worshipped in the same way as Ibrahim worshipped. They worshipped in the same way as Adam worshipped. They all worshipped as God had instructed: Worship Me alone. I am your Lor God Creator, there is no other. This is Islam.

Jesus Instructions are exactly the same as every prophets: God is One Lord God Creator. Worship Him alone. Do not associate anything to/with Him.

the rest of the questions are just waste of time. I don't have that time. Its the Christians who are eager to disproof Islam. Islam is Quranic based. It has no resemlance to Yiddish or Ibru or Aramaic, since it is Arabic. Yet you people will not quit maligning it.

@Dankol: Thanks man. « on: Today at 11:52:51 AM »

Christians must be prepared to answer the typical objections made against the Gospel. Most of the objections are based on simple logical fallacies. The following is a list of some of the most common fallacies used by Muslims.
Note: The average Muslim does not know that his arguments are logically erroneous. He is sincere in his beliefs. Thus you must be patient and kind in sharing with him why his arguments are invalid.

1. The Fallacy of False Assumptions: In logic as well as in law, "historical precedent" means that the burden of proof rests on those who set forth new theories and not on those whose ideas have already been verified. The old tests the new. The already established authority judges any new claims to authority.

Even if the old idea/theory is wrong? Will that count for objective observation?

Since Islam came along many centuries after Christianity, Islam has the burden of proof and not Christianity. The Bible tests and judges the Qur'an. When the Bible and the Qur'an contradict each other, the Bible must logically be given first place as the older authority. The Qur'an is in error until it proves itself.
Some Muslims violate the principle of historical precedent by asserting that Islam does not have the burden of proof and that the Qur'an judges the Bible.

If this is assumed to be always true, then Christianity and indeed the New Tstament is still wrong. You have tocompare it and put into account the Judaic religion and its Book, Torah. There is no 3 gods in it and Jesus was not in it, too.

2. Arguing in a circle: If you have already assumed in your premise what you are going to state in your conclusion, then you have ended where you began and proven nothing.

Circle If you end where you began, you got nowhere.

Examples:
#1 Proving Allah by the Qur'an and then proving the Qur'an by Allah.
#2 Proving Muhammad by the Qur'an and then proving the Qur'an by Muhammad.
#3 Proving Islam by the Qur'an and then proving the Qur'an by Islam.

Same goes for you; 1). Proving Jesus as god and Trinity as an idea by the Gospel/New Testament, and proving Gospel/New Testament by Jesus as god/Trinity. 2). Proving Jesus as son of God by the New Testament and then proving the New Testament by Jesus as son of God.
3). Proving Christianity by the New Testament and then proving the New Tstament by Christianity.

This is just the Jews arguing with you. Lets leave the Muslims out of this. Unfortunately, for you Christians you have the Jewish Book in your Christian Bible. It is there if not for anything else, to argue and disproof the New Testament. Please start defending your Book, which the Jews call the New Lies!

3. False Analogy: Comparing two things as if they are parallel when they are not really the same at all.
Examples:
#1 Many Muslims erroneously assume that Muslims and Christians share the same concepts of God, revelation, inspiration, textual preservation, the Bible, prophethood, biblical history, conversion, etc,

You must be out of your league in fallacies. Muslims, and indeed Quran never share anything with you, except that we are under the same heavens and living on the same earth. No muslim will say that we have the same Lord/God. Allah is ours and you deny Him. No one in Islam will address his Creator as Jehovah/Yahweh. Quran is our revelation and that is enough. Inspiration that we rekorn with is through Muhammad (AS). This is the reason that I eat hind quarter of animal, while the Jews don't. We do not celebrate Easter, so how do we have the same revelation? Quran is not preserved like the Gospel or Torah; Quran is in authentic Arabic. No muslim takes a look at the Bible, except in contemporary comparisons. While islam has 124000 messengers and or prophets, am sure you have nothing close to that. Check your Bible, again. There is no Biblical history in Islam. Allah alone told the stories in Quran. Where is Bible in it? AlRahman is copying the Bible?

Where is acts of apostle, books of revelations, the letters of the apostles; Paul in the Quran?

#2 Because a false analogy is drawn between Islam and Christianity, some Muslims think that any argument which refutes the Qur'an will likewise refute the Bible; any argument which refutes Muhammad will also refute Jesus Christ, etc,

Should a truth be ignored because such truth will upset your sense of injustice? The Jews must now reluctantly accept your Christian doctrines and Book, when it is obvious that it is opposing their own long established doctrine, and earlier Book, the Torah? I don't think so.

#3 For example, many Muslims claim that Muhammad and all prophets were sinless. They even deny that Abraham was an idol worshipper. Thus when a Christian points out all the wicked things that Muhammad did (mass murder, child abuse, lying, etc.), the Muslims will say,

"If you are right, then you must also reject your biblical prophets for doing wicked things as well."

Since it is Muhammad and his followers, the Muslims with their Quran in hand is what has disallowed your unfettered claim to world dominance, I am sure that the attach will not stop. But should a similar issue and conditions not be put on your Christian Book and ideology, if we are looking for the truth? If we look into the actions of the Biblical Jesus, we will see intent to murder, except the forces against him were just too much.

I often ask myself, except that I know that Prophet Jesus is not the same as Jesus in the Bible, was the Biblical Jesus not lying, if we consider the fact that he said that he and his listeners have the same Lord/God on one hand. And then on the other hand it is believed that he is saying that he is god? Which is correct? God or Prophet? One of these two statements must be wrong.

A child abuser who was not confronted or stopped, should not stop at one child, or should he? A woman beater never stop at the first one. If the child abuser never repeat his action that he is accused with more than one child it is a wrong accusation, I say.

What he is really saying is, "If you reject my prophet, then you must reject your prophets as well. If Muhammad was a false prophet, then your prophets are false as well."

Adam, Enoch, Noah, Ibrahim, etc were all prophets long and gone before Judaism of Moses. How are they Christian prophets when they are not prophets of Jews? The only prophet you have if any is Jesus. But then you rejected his commandments to you. You only formed a religion after his name, and nothing else.

The root problem is that the Muslim concept of prophethood is not the same as the Christian concept of prophethood. We teach that prophets sin like anyone else. Thus while Islam is refuted by the sins of Muhammad, Christianity is not jeopardized at all. The Muslim is guilty of setting up a "false analogy."

Are you okay, man? You are contradicting your own statement: You said prophets sin like everyone else. Then you condemned prophet Muhammad for sinning? Did Jesus ever sinned? Lets use the Bible; Temptationitself is a sin,sowemust record three of it for Biblical Jesus. Cursing is a sin, so we must record one for Biblical Jesus. Should I continue? How about purchases of sword in preparation for war? War will lead to murder, loss of lives, etc.

Whenever a Muslim responds to a Christian attack on the Qur'an, Muhammad, or Allah by flipping the argument around and applying it to the Bible, Jesus or the Trinity as if Islam and Christianity either stand or fall together, he is guilty of the fallacy of false analogy. Islam can be false and Christianity be true at the same time.

Muslims do not want to task you to much. Hence we use what you are familiar with to argue against you. Afterall, you wanted to disproof Islam, whereas you are giving us the ingredients to completely throw you off. Why reinvent the wheel?

@Noetic2: In your chaotic opinion, you say Muhammedans. Nothing is called Muhammedan(s).

Muhammad is the name. Check it out in the Quran. There is even a Chapter titled as such. It is after the Ha Mim collection of Chapters.
Muhammad (AS), is a Muslim, a Messenger, a Prophet, a Mumin, etc.

No time did he say that those who followed the religion of Islam are Muhammedans. They are muslims. And I thought you were matriculated!

Whats well written about what the poster presented? Watch the Muslims destroy it. The same way your entries didn't past Muster.

@$Osisi: Islam also have as its duty to protect and safe lives. Open the Quran and read it. Now, apart from the one time that a prostitute was saved, show me another verse from the New Testament that a single life was saved.

I will them show you the many verses from the Quran where Allah says leave them alone for their appointed meeting with their Lord.

You as a woman should be appaulled about female treatments from the Bible. For sure you are the purveyor of the act that make mankind fall from grace, mercy and hence sent out of the garden! You are punished with pain of childbearing. Your action brought in the original sin that will never leave even the body of a new born baby! You are blamed by the males, and can't be looked at even when you are in your monthly issues. This means that every month, men should be blind towards you, for at least 5 days?!

Osisi, you need to get out of this group. Otherwies, its your fault that you are considered this way! Abeg woman, go sedon.

Allah says in the Quran to the "Believers" to enter Islam Completely (without holding back). And that they should not alliance or allow shaitan an open enemy of man to make alliance with you. Noetic, you are so chaotic, if you think a believer should be thinking like a non-believer, when it comes to religion.

Do believers and non believers equal or have their ways of worship the same? No.

@JJYOU: Should a god be begging another one, regardless of the Mercy or Unmercifulnes? Is there a verse in your Bible where Yahweh, or Jehovah or Eloi beg Jesus or the Holy Ghost? Did Yahweh or Jehovah or Eloi ever asked Jesus or Holy Ghost to approve anything before it is done? Think about it for a moment. Maybe it will finally come to you that you have been playing around all this time.

Allah does not ask anyone, and does not beg anyone. He instructs, commands and does what He Will. Yet you have the greatest Mercy from Him; all you have to do is seek forgiveness from Him, directly! No go between. No nothing!

@Davidylan:

So Abuzola understands PERFECTLY that Christ Himself and the jews CORRECTLY identified Him as God?

What a shock . . . i never knew i'd live to see the day a muslim would MISTAKENLY admit the truth!

David I thought your many years of having been in Rochester will help you some about what a man truly means
and when he takes your lies and use it to argue against you? This is waht Abuzola have done with your deitifying a prophet!

He said, so that you don't mis it this time, if Jesus is the true God, then you Christians can claim that your religion is peaceful,
because he Jesus used to kill people mercilessly, if you read the Old Testament! Now run with that and disproof Abuzola.

Your just holding on to part of the sentence and ignoring the other part, because it does contain the truth, is your perennial problem!

This is the reason you are still a christian. You probably would enjoy Dr. Feelgood. Reality is a different animal, altogether. Jesus could never even be god if we take into consideration of the OT attitude of Biblical God. Would Jesus would have allowed a single scratch of his skin not to even think
about those big laxarations! He would have wiped them out, the Jews and the co-conspirator Romans! He would have gone far beyond stopping them, or taking revenge. It will be an intended eye for a whole clan, if you know what I mean. (wink, wink).


Where is $Osisi who started this thread?

What is also illogical is the fact that a person can claim to follow an ideal entity, Jesus son of Mary in this case, but turn around and disregard all his statements, and injuctions that he left!

Is it sensible that the religion that Jesus participated in be abandoned, and just because a completely different one is set up with only his name borrowed for it makes this new religion right? If the Jewish religion in practice today is different from the religion of Moses, can we sincerely say that the Jews are followers of Moses, in the real sense of the word?

If Jesus instructed that the Torah and its prophets be relevant throughout time, and a people who claim to be Jesus followers render the OT irrelevant after being advised as above, can we say that this people are truly following Jesus?

If the position of Jesus was stated loud and clear by him, while he was preaching, is it a sensible thing that his position be exagerated to what it is not, just because he was perceived to have died and risen from death, in a badly calculated 3 days?

Christianity, in my opinion, considering the above, without going to more accusations, is just as guilty as the Atheist. At least the atheists are not pretenders. Pretensions is hypocritical and that is worse. Faith is neither scientifically quantified or qualified. So it is when it comes to applications of intellect or logic to it. If any of these three is an ingredient of Faith, the knowledgeable, the logical and the scientists would have been the primaryand earliest followers of each prophet when the mission was began.

It should be realised that Faith being a conviction in the heart and mind (soul/spirit) without first being driven by logic, science and or knowledge, is what made the lowest of the communities accept their prophets, very easily and much earlier in drove than the powerfuls and influencials.

The fact that christianity is guilty and hypocritical in the claim that it follows Jesus, rather the only obvious thing, the borrowing of his name for a completely different religion is why I should not bother myself with them. How do you dialogue with a person who has already made up his mind that Blue color is yellow? He has decided that the only pigment he sees is yellow when anything blue is brought in!

But when the people who are not color blind like him present overwhelming evidence of truth, he resort to calling them liars or worse. Is there more an unjust person who lied against his Creator? Reducing him to a man, in the personage of a prophet, just because the miracle of that prophet is new and unique?

But every miracle is new and unique. If not, it will not be a miracle and be able to get the attentions of those who witnessed it. I will only from now onward respond to posts that speak falsehood about Islam, whenever I come across them.

Thanks my sister Uplawal. May Allah keep you well and give you success in this world and in the next.

When the muslims write or copy long pieces, it is definitely for the benefit of the Muslims. There is tremendous amount of info in Islam.
A second in the life of our noble prophet (AS) is a lifetime of other people.

The disbelievers want a one liners. But Islam is not a one liner, whereby people may just interprete what they want for themselves. The beauty of this religion known as Isam is that it is a complete religion without needing any addition, before Allah took back His Messenger (AS).

@$Osisi: Allah and His Rasul (AS) did not kill "Apostates" without any reason except "leaving" Islam. Raed the Quran, again! Many verses spoke about religion is by choice, leaving and coming into religion, again and again, and keeping belief in the heart, while denying it on the tongue, if one is fearful of confessing his/her Islam.

If every apostate was killed, the verse of possibility of a person reentering Islam will be ineffective, as it would have been abrogated. Also, the verse that allows freedom of religion will also be irrelevant. As we can see, these are not the cases. When Makka was opened by the prophet (AS) and his companions (RA), they did not kill people who had accepted Islam and then left it, after the event of Isra wa Miraj. In Madina, people left Islam after Gaswatu (war/battle) of Huhud. Osisi, notice that the word Jihad was not used to denote "war or battle" . Yet all the wars that the rophet participated in are "holy wars!" Ahrab is another word for war!

The few people who were killed during the life time of the Prophet (AS) for apostasy had two things in common, as Allah revealed their innermost secret about their entering and leaving Islam to His Messenger (AS).

1) The individuals before entering or during their stay as muslim, they had decided to enter and leave it with  the hope that when they do others will decide not to enter it, or those who are in it, will get out along with them or after it.

2) Those who who had this secret in their hearts, after leaving began totell lies against Islam. Their lies are so pervasive that it becomes known and common knowledge to everyone. When they are told to cease and desist, they did not stop. They were brough to trial and found guilty and put to death!

Osisi, is there a society that will not meter justice to the guilty? There is a limit to human endurance. Even the Christian's turn the other cheek, has never been practiced, by anyone or society. There is a point that even the strongest of human society will begin to show stess.

@$Osisi: I think you need to know that there is only one prophet. He is Muhammad (AS). The Imams and indeed the companions deferred to Muhammad (AS). None of these noble men's words or statements override that of Muhammad. When any of them made a statement, it has to be within what Muhammad said. If it has no connection to what Muhammad said, it should be rejected as soon as you know exactly what he said.

In view of this, each of the four Imams gave a disclaimer that it is Muhammad's statemet that is above theirs. Allah says that Muhammad is the prophet. Allah says that believers should obey Muhammad.

Sayings Of The Imams Regarding Following The Sunnah
And Ignoring Their Views Contradictory To It

It would be beneficial if we gave some of these here, for perhaps this will admonish or remind those who follow the opinion of the Imams - nay, of those far below the Imams in rank - blindly18, sticking to their madhabs or views as if these had descended from the heavens! But Allaah, Mighty and Sublime, says:

"Follow (O men!) the revelation given to you from your Lord, and follow not, as friends and protectors, other than Him. Little is it you remember of admonition."19

1) Abu Hanifah (rahimahullah)
The first of them is Abu Hanifah Nu'man ibn Thabit, whose companions have narrated from him various sayings and diverse warnings, all of them leading to one thing: the obligation to accept the Hadeeth, and to give up following the opinions of the imams which contradict it:

1. "When a hadeeth is found to be saheeh, then that is my madhhab."20
2. "It is not permitted21 for anyone to accept our views if they do not know from where we got them."22

In one narration, "It is prohibited23 for someone who does not know my evidence to give verdicts24 on the basis of my words."

Another narration adds, ", for we are mortals: we say one thing one day, and take it back the next day."

In another narration, "Woe to you, O Ya'qub25! Do not write down everything you hear from me, for it happens that I hold one opinion today and reject it tomorrow, or hold one opinion tomorrow and reject it the day after tomorrow."26

3. "When I say something contradicting the Book of Allaah the Exalted or what is narrated from the Messenger (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam), then ignore my saying."27

2) Malik ibn Anas (rahimahullah)

As for Imaam Malik ibn Anas, he said:

1. "Truly I am only a mortal: I make mistakes (sometimes) and I am correct (sometimes). Therefore, look into my opinions: all that agrees with the Book and the Sunnah, accept it; and all that does not agree with the Book and the Sunnah, ignore it."28
2. "Everyone after the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) will have his sayings accepted and rejected - not so the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam)."29

3. Ibn Wahab said: "I heard Malik being asked about cleaning between the toes during ablution. He said, 'The people do not have to do that.' I did not approach him until the crowd had lessened, when I said to him, 'We know of a sunnah about that.' He said, 'What is that ?' I said, 'Laith ibn Sa'd, Ibn Lahee'ah and 'Amr ibn al-Harith narrated to us from Yazeed ibn 'Amr al-Ma'aafiri from Abu 'Abdur-Rahman al-Hubuli from Mustawrid ibn Shaddad al-Qurashi who said, 'I saw the Messenger of Allaah (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) rubbing between his toes with his little finger.' He said, 'This hadeeth is sound; I had not heard of it at all until now.' Afterwards, I heard him being asked about the same thing, on which he ordered cleaning between the toes."30

3) Shaafi'i (rahimahullah)

As for Imaam Shaafi'i, the quotations from him are most numerous and beautiful31, and his followers were the best in sticking to them:


1. "The sunnah of the Messenger of Allaah (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) reach, as well as escape from, every one of us. So whenever I voice my opinion, or formulate a principle, where something contrary to my view exists on the authority of the Messenger of Allaah (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam), then the correct view is what the Messenger of Allaah (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) has said, and it is my view."32
2. "The Muslims are unanimously agreed that if a sunnah of the Messenger of Allaah (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) is made clear to someone, it is not permitted33 for him to leave it for the saying of anyone else."34

3. "If you find in my writings something different to the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allaah (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam), then speak on the basis of the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allaah (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam), and leave what I have said."

In one narration: ", then follow it (the Sunnah), and do not look sideways at anyone else's saying."35

4. "When a hadeeth is found to be saheeh, then that is my madhhab."36

5. "You37 are more knowledgeable about Hadeeth than I, so when a hadeeth is saheeh, inform me of it, whether it is from Kufah, Basrah or Syria, so that I may take the view of the hadeeth, as long as it is saheeh."38

6. "In every issue where the people of narration find a report from the Messenger of Allaah (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) to be saheeh which is contrary to what I have said, then I take my saying back, whether during my life or after my death."39

7. "If you see me saying something, and contrary to it is authentically-reported from the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam), then know that my intelligence has departed."40

8. "For everything I say, if there is something authentic from the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) contrary to my saying, then the hadeeth of the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) comes first, so do not follow my opinion."41

9. "Every statement on the authority of the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) is also my view, even if you do not hear it from me."42

4) Ahmad ibn Hanbal (rahimahullah)

Imaam Ahmad was the foremost among the Imams in collecting the Sunnah and sticking to it, so much so that he even "disliked that a book consisting of deductions and opinions be written."43 Because of this he said:

1. "Do not follow my opinion; neither follow the opinion of Malik, nor Shaafi'i, nor Awzaa'i, nor Thawri, but take from where they took."44
In one narration: "Do not copy your Deen from anyone of these, but whatever comes from the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) and his Companions, take it; next are their Successors, where a man has a choice."

Once he said: "Following45 means that a man follows what comes from the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) and his Companions; after the Successors, he has a choice."46

2. "The opinion of Awzaa'i, the opinion of Malik, the opinion of Abu Hanifah: all of it is opinion, and it is all equal in my eyes. However, the proof is in the narrations (from the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) and his Companions)."47

3. "Whoever rejects a statement of the Messenger of Allaah (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) is on the brink of destruction."48


These are the clear, lucid sayings of the Imams (Allaah Exalted be pleased with them) about sticking to the Hadeeth and forbidding the following of their opinion without clearly- visible evidence, such that mere opinion and interpretation is not acceptable.
Hence, whoever adhered to whatever of the Sunnah that was proved authentic, even if it opposed some of the Imams' sayings, he would not be conflicting with their madhhab, nor straying from their path; rather, such a person would be following all of them and would be grasping the most trustworthy hand-hold, which never breaks. However, this would not be the case with the one who abandoned any of the authentic Sunnah simply because it contradicted their views; nay, such a person would be being disobedient to them and opposing their above mentioned sayings, while Allaah says:

"But no, by Your Lord, they can have no (real) faith, until they make you judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against your decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction."49. He also says:

"Then let those beware who withstand the Messenger's order, lest some trial befall them or a grievous penalty be inflicted on them."50


Hafiz Ibn Rajab al-Hanbali (rahimahullah) says:

"Therefore it is obligatory on anyone who hears of a command of the Messenger of Allaah (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) or knows it, to explain it to the Ummah, advise them sincerely, and order them to follow his command, even if it contradicts the opinion of someone great. This is because the authority of the Messenger of Allaah (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) has the most right to be respected and followed, over and above the opinion of anyone great who has unknowingly contradicted the Messenger's command in any matter. This is why the Companions and those after would refute anyone who contradicted the authentic Sunnah, sometimes being very stern in their refutation51, not out of hatred for that person, for they loved and respected him, but because the Messenger of Allaah was more beloved to them, and his command was superior to the command of any other created being. Hence, when the order of the Messenger and that of someone else conflicted, the order of the Messenger would be more fitting to be enforced and followed. None of this would stop them respecting the person they had opposed because they knew that he would be forgiven52; in fact, the latter would not mind his instruction being opposed when the command of the Messenger of Allaah (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) was clearly shown to be opposite."53

Indeed, how could they mind that, when they had ordered their followers to do so, as we have seen, and had enjoined on them to abandon any of their views which contradicted the Sunnah. In fact, Imaam Shaafi'i (rahimahullah) told his companions to attribute the authentic Sunnah to him also, even if he had not adopted it or had adopted something contradictory to it. Hence, when the analyst Ibn Daqeeq al-'Eid (rahimahullah) collected together, in a bulky volume, the issues in which one or more of the four Imams' madhhab had contradicted the authentic hadeeth, he wrote at the beginning of it, "It is prohibited to attribute these answers to the Mujtahid Imams, and obligatory on the jurists who follow their opinions to know of these so that they do not quote them regarding these and thus lie against them."54


The Imams' Followers Leaving their Views if these Contradicted the Sunnah

Due to all that we have mentioned, the disciples of the Imams, a number of people from those of old, and a few from those of later time55, would not accept all of their Imam's views; they actually ignored many when they found them to be clearly against the Sunnah. Even the two Imams, Muhammad ibn al-Hasan and Abu Yusuf (rahimahullah) differed from their Sheikh Abu Hanifah "in about a third of the Madhhab"56, as the books of masaa'il prove. Similarly is said about Imaam al- Muzani57 and other followers of Shaafi'i and other Imams; were we to start giving examples, the discussion would become exceedingly, long, and we would digress from what we set out to do in this Introduction, so we shall limit ourselves to two instances:
1) Imaam Muhammad says in his Muwatta'58(p. 158), "As for Abu Hanifah, he did not regard there being a prayer to ask for rain, but we hold that the imam prays two rak'ahs and then supplicates and holds out his wrapping garment , "

2) We have 'Isaam ibn Yusuf al-Balkhi, one of the companions of Imaam Muhammad59 and a servant of Imaam Abu Yoosuf60, who "would give verdicts contrary to Imaam Abu Hanifah because he did not know the latter's evidence, and other evidence would present itself to him, so he would give verdicts using that."61 Hence, "he would raise his hands on bowing (in prayer) and on rising from it"62, as is the mutawaatir sunnah of the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam); the fact that his three Imams (i.e. Abu Hanifah, Abu Yusuf and Muhammad) said otherwise did not prevent him from practicing this sunnah. This is the approach which every Muslim is obliged to have, as we have already seen from the testimony of the Four Imams, and others.


To sum up: I sincerely hope that no follower of an Imaam will race to condemn the principles of this book and abandon benefiting from the sunnah of the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) which it contains, with the argument that they are contrary to his Madhhab. I hope that such a person will instead consider what we have given of the exhortations of the Imams towards the obligation to act on the Sunnah and ignore their sayings contradictory to it. I hope also that he will realize that to condemn the attitude of this book is to condemn whichever Imaam he is following, for we have taken these principles from those Imams, as we have explained. Therefore, whoever refuses to be guided by them on this path is in great danger, for such refusal necessitates turning away from the Sunnah, the Sunnah to which we have been ordered to refer in cases of difference of opinion and on which we have been commanded to depend.


I ask Allaah to make us among those about whom He says,
"The answer of the believers, when summoned to Allaah and His Messenger, in order that he may judge between them, is no other than this: they say, "We hear and we obey" - it is such as these that will attain Success. It is those who obey Allaah and His Messenger, and fear Allaah, and keep their duty to Him, who will triumph."63

Noetics in his chaotic mind presented a yardstick, but it is all full of lies! Should anyone therefore adopt it to state his own belief? No.

@Jesoul: Thanks. How have you been? I hope the family is well?

Interestingly, a liar was able to seduce you to accepting his premise! Is Quran a Bible? Read it. A poet like you is expected to appreciate written materials.Compare the Bile side by side with the Quran. There is no resemblance. Even remotely. Incidentally he says the Koran. Q is not next to K. If a person calls me Olajide, should I accept it as my name? Even if a person calls me Olawale, is that my name? Can a sane mind, the matriculated kind say that Q is K and U is O? Except a dishonest mind will make such leap of fate.

Webb Jamie and Dexmond must be two mad souls. Worse. Even insane soul hae restriction. Nigeria is producing all kinds. The good the bad and the extremely ugly!

@Dexmond: If a servant who is honored by his master alway petition that he remains honored and beloved, is that a sign that he has lost that honor? No. The honor is intact. What the individual has done is to let the master know that he is not arrogant and will always be loyal and can be counted upon. For a messenger of God to continue to seek God's protection is a sign of not being arrogant, but fully submitted.

If anyone has ever read the Quran, one will find the very first verse of Chapter 2 to sound like a ringing bell. So is the first verse of Chapter 3, and many others! Is it your intention to bring out the work or involvement of demon in the sound of a bell? Thats okay because the churches and indeed Christianity will be the first in this matter with the devil/demon!

And if the events of revelation has this "disturbing" effect on Muhammad (AS), especially being a normal and mild mannered man in other times, is a singular proof that the events, the revelations must be supernatural! Yet, none of his companions opposed him after his death, assuming they could not while he was alive! Anyone who knew how arabs are in their own community will know that if they thought he was lying, his companions would have enmass deserted him. Even those who did not accept his prophethood dd not say that he was lying when they really came down to it!

Will lies could have been so accurate, without any falsehood? He said trhat his Uncle, Abi lahab will never become a muslim. He died not a moment accepting islam to disprove Muhammad(s). He said that Rome will be victorious, and to the exact period, it became so!

The fact that Muhammad's focus of worship was Allah, Who helped him, by sending His angels is an indication of his prophethood. Will God send angels to help a liar so thatsaid liar is successful? There there been such a case in human history? I though God sent the same Angel to help Moses. Is Moses a liar or demon possessed, too?

I thought that Jesus had a brush with the devil, according to the Bible? If not Jesus, John or both had the devil driving them wildly into the wilderness. Thats control. Its interesting to know that Jesus was even played upon, three times, by the devil on simple things as food, worship, jumping, etc!

What are you guys talking about?

And the thread was opened with overt prejudice telling people no fanatic please! What is fanatical, except what you are doing? Darn Christian fanatics. Unfortunately, your Biblical statements have no cronological pathway so that people can follow it. It always start so suddenly. There is nothing special about people asking a prophet of God to help them since they know that his prayer with God will be accepted. Muhammad (AS) performed many miracles by Allah! Even a wolf got the attention of a farmer by talking, telling the farmer that if you find me amazing, it is nothing compared to the presence of a prophet in Madina. Go and verify as if to to tell the farmer that he should ollow Muhammad. The farmer happened to be a Jew and he finally accepted Islam.

The same Muhammad who took leadership from Jesus, Moses, etc all at the same time in Masjid Aqsa in Ilya (Jerusalem). The structures are still there today in Masjid Umar (Dome of the Rock) and Masji Aqsa. Incidentally, Jesus did not build a church. Muhammad participated in Masjid Haram in Makka, Masjid Al Nawawi in Madina and another one in Madina. Also he prayed on the Aqsa/Umar Masajid site in Jerusalem.

Do you people just talk for the sake of talking? Have you have no shame? Nothing in your statement pointed out, even remotely that Muhammad crumbled under the influence of demon. We see that his Lord strenghtened him with Angels, allthe way.

To know what is right, you can just know all that s wrong. The  opposite of that will be what is right. This is why I used Christianity, to illustrate my point! If I din't, you may think that "many roads lead to Paradise!" No. There is only one way. God is the Originator of that way: it is Islam. You see, it is not borne out of ethnicity like Judaism (interestingly that is not Christianity). It not borne out of a group organizing a religion after a prophet like Christianity, or Buhhdism, etc!

Allah says that He perfected a religion and mafde it a favor for mankind. He called it islam, literally meaning Submission to the Will of Allah. He further states that anyone who comes to Him on that day with anything other than this particular way; Islam, it will be rejected and not be acceptable. It directly tells me that such a person will enter not paradise but hellfire!

Noetic asked why am I muslim, he confirming why he is a Christian and not a muslim. If I had not attempted to answer him and corrected hislies, I will simply ask him, why was Jesus not a Christian, but declared himself a prophet, a son of man and cried, wept and prayed to a God (a greater Entity) to help him in his time of needs?

Is there a greater indictment against Christians and Christianity? If Jesus was sent as a prophet, having no choice in the matter, is it not natural that a good soul gravitates towards and always longing for submission to God? Afterall, I am a creation of God. The Lord Who created my soul with consciousness of Him, and my body in due propotion, so that I may be able to worship Him with my body and soul.

A proof of this; Allah commands me to stand, so I have adequate tools for this purpose; my  feet. He commands me to bow; my body is properly shaped for it. And I can remain in ths position adequately. He commands me to prostrate my face: Alhamdulillah. It is the best position for my body. I wonder why your not being a muslim is my concern? Islam is not a religion that people can comfortably inherit. This is why you see people starting their own new bloodlines in Islam. The Western countries are full of indigenous families who are muslims. Yet you will se people that you will expect to be muslims walking away from it.

It by the Mercy of allah that I am a Muslim. It is by His Mercy that I have remained one. I pray that I die as one, because from Qur'an and ahadith, I know by Allah that I will enter Paradise, without any moment in Hell!

Hizz up davidylan, your crony Noetic in his chaotic mind has no leg to stand on! I wonder where you are missing the points? Have you performed the experiment of the murkiness of the water (water surface is what you see, duuh), when the sun is setting? Am sure you are afraid to know the truth! It will be a death blow to your ignorance! Yet, you can don the lab coat and perform major experiments, testing for the unnown. Things that you need to wear gloves, eye protection devices, and probably window must be opened or at least the ventillation equipment is working while on the job. Or take in the fumes? Yet a simple stroll to the bank of lake erie or get a big bowl of water and set it so that the rays of dying sun hit it at sunset, you have not performed it! Man, if I ever have seen a man afraid of his own shadow, it will be you.

And for me, I dont care about Christianity. There is nothing to say that Islam will not survive if "Christianity" or any other religion(s) neer have existed or cease to exist? Islam is completely different and have no direct resemblance to any religion. A person who says that a man who is eating is copying him is a fool. It is natural for people to eat and drink. Each one, however develop his/her taste of food, based on many factors.

One of the factors must be cultural and family stable food intake. It is not therefore so surprising that the yorubas have some foods common among themselves. The other factors may include the openness and the acquired taste of the ondividual.No wonder you see a person who has travelled far and wide, having for ranges of food than those who have not from the same cultural background. Most us aspire that we are worshipping God. This is our focus. But only in islam do you have the correct way of worship.

No am not educated at all. Alhamdulillah, I have enough sense not to accept 3 gods and foolishly as an educated man like you, to turn around and make them 1! Mathematically, it does not add up. Emotionally it is not acceptable. No sane mind will accept it. God is not the Author of Confusion I say. He will not make Himself three as if performing magic and allows one part to die! Incredible education, Noetic; it is chaotic!

If I took 3 Million pounds from Prince charles or his mother and return 1 Million back to them, using Christian analogy, they will cry foul! They will take me to court. No lawyer, except a muslim who wants to awake their ignorant minds as they have believed that there is 3 in 1 will represent me. The Christian Judge will turn around and be practical in this case, whereas, a moment ago he was praying to 3 gods in 1!

If I do 1/3 work and say it is full work, because it is 3 in 1, I will be terminated for lying. I now put the onus on you to proof that you have not accepted a lie as truth. maybe ignorantly, since I see your writing as that of ignorant fellow.

Do you know what a soul is, Noetic2? It is chaotic that you do not know that it is that part of self that is the receptive of consciousness! I simply stated that my spirit/soul agrees to it. It drives me to it. It makes the process easy on my body. While you sleep through the night, my soul rest not, except that I make my morning prayer. I wake up and drawn to salah, immediately. Like I said, since you have no understanding, how would you know what it means to be one with one soul? I am happy that my soul is able by Allah's mercy on me, to overcome my bodily desires.

I find your lies as I find the stories in the fairytale novels. In the days when I used to read them, I get captivated by them, but yet, you know that there is no truth in them. A true believer in Allah needs not to have the same esoteric reasons that you listed, since it is Allah's Mercy that allows the soul and body to agree in His worship!

While you are conningly inviting us to disbelief, in the same way the people who have their altars and their gods do, Allah has made our hearts firm in His belief. And you complained that I am discreditting Christianity to support the authenticity of Islam. I am as guilty as much as you. But not more. My proof is that while I spoke the truth from your Bible; you on the otherhand shamelessly went about misquoting Mariam verse71! You on the other hand misquoted Surah Najm. Both qoutes I have presented to you, for your conscience to at least dialogue with you!

While I proved that your Bible have verses that say the exact opposite what others say, you went about calling the Quran Bible! What an absolute nonsense! It is absurd that you make such a statement. Has it ever reached your hearing that a Muslim calls the Quran, Bible? Which part; theJewish Torah or is it the Christian Gospel? You found the acts of apostles, or the letters of Paul, etcin the Quran?

If your Bible is found to have imprints of Mr. Paul, must you be dishonest to want to drag down the Quran, out of your glearing envy?

To call Muhammad (AS) a false prophet is the height of ignorance. You have been on that height all through, mr noetic. It is chaotic that you have such a lying Soul! You dont have to be Muslim, you can die as a christian or choose any other religion. Islam is fine without you.You want hell? Thank God you live in England. Its summer and it is hotter than the winter! Hell will be hotter.

You must be a an ignrant soul to ask me if am serious. Are you serious when you took 3 entities and made them 1?You must be out of your league if you think you will have a free pass!

Iexplained your lies to you, and you have the gut to ask if I am serious? Did you see any sign of joke in me, per se?

@Noetic2: It is chaotic that you have the mind to think that you hav responded to why are you christian, when what you wrote is full of mind bulgling fantasies!

You are trying to defend Jesus as you god, you neglected his Gospels (not that it will make any difference), but instead went to Galathian, and some other books written by Mr. Paul, after Jesus was already lifted up. Mind you Jesus did not lift himself up. It took you sometime before you finally posted a verse from what is known as Gospel "according to" John. The according to provides an indication of the fact that if John wrote it, it is not evidentially strong enough to stand as Jesus statement. In the courts, a third party statement is not admissible.

I wonder therefore, if your statements have any leg to stand on? The evidence is overwhelming against you. If I have to analyse the actions and instructions of Jesus for the possibility of Christianity as a religion, I will find it to be a false religion;

First Jesus, throughout his life never for a moment prayed or acted contrary to the what say Zachariah and John were doing! These were the prophets sharing some part of his time on earth! These men and Jesus never did anything other than follow the footsteps of Moses! They each were there throughout their lives to call their people back to the authentic ways of Moses!

In view of the above; to form a sect other than belonging to the sect that copied these prophets, leads to a path of ruin! To then after the removal of Jesus from the earth take up an ambition to start a separate religion deviating from what he did and advocated that must continue, even after him, is a manifest error! It amounts to disobedience and hatred of the God that sent down the prophet(s) and the prophet(s) who conscentiously and thoroughly delivered their instructs/messages. This is first class idolatry, when without any authority plunk down a false statement and ascribes it to God and or His Prophet!

« #66 on: Yesterday at 11:16:00 PM »
@ ALL

I did not ask for why u are not a christian. I simply asked for the RATIONAL and LOGICALLY COMPREHENSIVE basis for being a muslim.

I am not interested in things like "I submit to the will of allah" "I am not a kufur" blah blah blah.

Imagine a 20 year old guy in europe who has no exposure to ANY form of religion. He then asks u, why are u a muslim?
just weight the merits and demerits of islam and offer them chronologically like I did in my opening post.

I cannot keep replying to every tom, di ck and harry who comes up with irrelevant postulations. just answer the questions asked.
To those who asked why am I a christian . . . .here is ur answer . . . https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-281109.0.html

And when you speak to the 20 years old, you should not lie to him either, because of its naivity. Speak the truth or forever hol your peace. If you are honest, this should be your watch dog.

I have been to your why you are a christian thread. It is full of irrationality and illogical statement. Tudor took you to task on your inconsistencies. I on the other hand challenge you on your intentional lies about the statements in the Quran. A case in point, Mariam verse 71! You claimed that every muslim's reward is hell fire. Thats a lie and you now it. I am personally disheartened by the fact that you are right there in the country where English as a languag originated! How did you arrive to take "passing over it" is to mean "going inside it?" This is a shame, seriously! You must have a horrible spirit which allows you to lie very shamelessly like that.

There is no place in the Quran that it has stated that it is a version of the Bible. Your Bible itself contradict itself, not in just one place, but in many, many places. In some part, Jesus said he is a prophet, son of man, and declares that God Lord the Creator is the same for him and his listeners! Yet we see in other places where the post Jesus earth dwelling period are deducting that he is god. In some places, they call him son of god. But they in other places provide the truth, because they say that he cried, wept as he petitioned his Lord God in Prayers, asking for His help!

Yet, as you read the same bible, the Jews have never considered the New testa ment to mean a thing! I am sure the Jews say that it is a false "Torah", too. I am sure that their not having the name of Jesus in the Torah will also mean that they feel that Jesus was not a prophet and definitely not God, since they know that God is not like us human! I wonder how the holder of your salvation, the Jews see your religion? They must believe that you are a fake, yet you are using the same book!

Finally, I asked you who was the "another comforter," and who was the previous "comforter?" Jesus must know that there was a previous Comfortr before he is promising another Comfoter? What was the nature of the previous comforter: Human being or Ghost? YOu tell us. Should his nature be different from that of the another Comforter? Please provide proofs!

If the another is a "spirit" did he abide with you for ever and how?And what did he teach you?

If the another comforter is a spirit, shouldnt the previous one be a spirit, too? If the previous one was aspirit what did he teach anyone, and who was he sent to and why would he not abide with them forever?

If te previous Comforter was a hman being, then why should the another Comforter be a ghost or spirit? What does it have that makes him be the one to abide with you for ever, whie the revious Comforter could not be the one? You need to answer these questions. Otherwise you will be deemed by me at least as an ignorant man who intentionally lies without any shame!

#11 on: Today at 08:13:08 AM »
Quote from: davidylan on Today at 01:52:00 AM
I think he did . . . the fact that he had no point in itself was a point.

he is actually used to constituting a nuisance on every thread. He could not refute ANY of the reasons why I am not a muslim, neither could he answer the questions I asked him. The guy is pathetic.

David what other point shoulI provide, after I have pointed out that your leader, Noetic2 in his chaotic rants, he forgot to mentioned that Islam is completely different and separate from Christianity, without any single convergence. Islam does not have three gods, nor was the Quran written in Aramaic or hebrew or Yiddish! Islam did not give Jesus any honor while debasing the other prophets. Islam in essence presented them the way Allah their Lord God actually sent them.

You and Chaotic Noetic2 are in fantasy land. People in fantasy always live in fantastic dreams. Your being a Christian is not my problem. You are free to choose any religion that you want, or none at all. Its a free will to worship or not to worship. Its a free will to pretend to worship when your process in the day of judgement will be rejected.

But you must be challenged when you come up with lies and passing them as truth! Whats fair rewards in lying on Jesus son of Mary (AS) a prophet of his Lord, by putting him in the position of that Lord. Is it fair to Jesus, a servant and creation like others before him or to His Lord, Whom you have cheapened away from His sole position?

Allah says in the Quran that "who is worse in injustice than a person who speaks lies against his Creator? Did Jesus create any human being? No! Did he say even in the Bible that he will be the one who decides who goes to Paradise or Hellfire? A being who does not know when the time of the Hour is, can never be the Lord of that Hour! That belongs to the One who knows the Hour; Allah!

How couls I have made any point, when your Blind eyes can see where I quoted Mariam verse 71, exactly as it appears in the English translation. Unlike Noetic chaotic false quote, that very verse has nothing about Muslim must go into hell! Those of you conclude that Muslims are bound to hell are liars! If you liar about a think that 1.5 B people can disproof you on, is your testimony ever worthy of consideration? But it is not just the Muslims evidence that is against you on this. Every human being who can read and are sincere enough to speak the truth will be against you. President Obama says that Jesus is his lord. No body is concern about his statement, because in his mind he is correct. But the same man was able to state that Muhammad, Jesus and Moses (AS) all prayed together in Jerusalem. Now tell me if he lied?

How is it that this is possible, since they existed many centuries apart? The miracle of Allah in Islam made it possible. This event is recorded, the first leg in Surah Isra. Its very first verse. Then the heavenly journey part is what is recored in Surah Najm, Chapter 53 above! If what Obama said from the Quran is true, one wonders if the miracle is recorded for Moses who is a toraic prophet, or for Jesus who is an Injil prophet or for Muhammad who is the Quranic prophet? The answer is very clear. I further asked who was the leader at the "prayer" in Jerusalem? The fact that they prayed together in Quranshows that they agreed on the same principle! Who led whom is easy to know, since there was no time that Jesus or Moses disagreed with Muhammad, I will first assume that it is Muhammad that was the leader. But even the fact that they prayed together was not mentioned in the Quran, but in Ahadith. The same ahadith that mentioned Muhammad as the leader. If Muhammad was not a speaker of truth, Moses and Jesus had their chance, both at this event to escoriated him! But then they did not. You guys need to get the Quran and the ahadith to know the truth.


As to idolatry and three daughters of Allah, as stated by chaotic noetic, I wonder where that came from. I read Surah Najm, at least once while putting my response together. I provided all the verses and hiligted the part of the paganic idols of Arabs. There is no single time that Allah says that any of them is a child, daughter of His! Surah 112 completely destroys any misreading that Allah may have even a son! I guess it is easy for you guys to just lie than speak any truth. Lie on God, lie on His Angels, lie on His Messengers or Prophets. Some of the Messengers and or prophets you disregard altogether. You cheapened Moses Book and Prophethood to a one line "Love your God and Neighbors like yourself!" Is this a fair assessment of what Jesus said, when he said that he did not come to destoy the laws and the prophets, and cautioned all against such act after him? Your saying that you follow Jesus or he is your lord on one hand, but on the other dismissed his commandment, at least as I have stated about the laws and prophets before him, is an indication of your very opposition of what comes out of your mouth. And your disregarding Jesus, direct.

Is there any reason to even respond to you? Yes. If you rae not challenged, somebody and you the author of lies may believe it in your polluted mind that you have spoken the truth. The statement that if you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes truth. Former Vice President Dick Cheney is a master of that gimmick. He used it to get his ways. The same man that God Almighty has forced some truth from his lips, about late Saddam and WMD! At least Cheney has some agenda. Whats yours? Many have passed without being able to fulfill the same ambition: you will pass just like them. Then you will meet your Maker. It will not be Yahweh or Jehovah or Jesus!

But Allah says that none of the people of the book will completely die, except that he/she at time of death know the true position of Jesus; the Jews actually knowing that he was a prophet to them, and the Christians knowing that he was just a prophet, not a son or God!

Finally, Muhammad (AS) and Quran have nothing from the Jews or the Christians except that it told te truth about the past prophets. The information that you will find in the Quran is unlike what you will find in the Bible. A similitude of that is if I were to tell the story of Adunbi war, whie you tell the same story. Stylistically we will be very different. If my bloodline was involved in its planning and the prosecuting of that war, I am sure going to have more information, because of the authenticity of my source. This is the case with Quran, versus your Bible. While both had the story of Joseph (AS) for example. The details are like night and day. While the Quran sheds lights on many things, the Bible did no such thing!

One finds in the Quran that Joseph prayed that he goes to Jail, instead of performing the illegal sexual act. Joseph before heinterpreted the dream of the King and accpted to be the Treasurer, wanted his nae cleared, by asking the authority to fore the wife of his former master to confess the truth about the whole sexual accusation. Joseph's shirt, containing his body scent and sweat, mixed with his father's love for him was a source of which Allah used to give back Jacob (Israel) sight. I could also educate you that Joseph had a standing instruction that when the Children of Israel are leaving Misra (Egypt), they should exhume his body and carry it along! But wait they spend 40 years in the wildreness/desert with that body. It neither was decayed nor was it producing any bad odor. W must not even forget that this prophet died hundreds of years before his nations of people set out of Egypt. This very phenomenon goes to show how accurate the verse of the Quran that says that the dead Prophets, Shuadahsbodies are not eaten by the earth. A more recent example was during the time of the death of a companion of Prophet Muhammad. I think it was Abbass bin Abu Mutalib; as he had been dead for many many years, but they needed to move his body to another place. So they dugged him up, and find that his body was still as intact and his cloth was not soiled or being eaten up.

In the process of being moved, somebody incidentally scratched his foot. The open skin began to ooze out blood as if he was still alive!

The opposite condition is your Bible, which gives very few information, laced with lies from men. No wonder that you need to have personal interpretation of the Biblical verses, since man have so much embellished it to satisfy his own agendas. Is it possible that a thing protected from Allah be equal to a thing from Allah allowed to be influenced by the desires of man? If Muhammad (AS) was a false prophet, and he met with Jesus and Moses, and neither was able to accuse him of any falsehood, is it not in emptiness that you make such a statement? Who will know false prophet; Jesus or you?

I now ask you, where is a single false statement that Muhammad ever made. There are over 6000 verses in the Quran. Just one falsehood, I will like to read from you. If you are unable to do so, then you sir mr. noetic with chaotic mind is a darn liar!

I get it, Muhammad should have lied to satisfy your lust for cheap escape of personal responsibility for your own condition, towards the day of Judgement. He Muhammad (AS) Allah states in Surah Najm, above that he does not say anything out of desire! Read it again: and you are too young to be blind! Should a prophet not speak the truth? Jesus spoke the truth. He said to his Israelite audience; your lord and my lord is bt One God! There is no statement where Jesus that he was a Lord or God that the israelites must worship, the One who got them safely out of Egypt while He destroyed the mighty Pharaoh!

I am wasting my time with you, since there is no truth coming from your mouth!

Now to answer your Question: I am a muslim because my soul first acknowldege the Lordship and Godship of my Creator Allah. As I was born into the era of Muhammad's prophethood (AS), with the completion of the Islamic process of the only acceptable religion from man, I find that my natural inclination is to this religion. I came out of a womb of a woman, who at my birth was still a christian. He reared be. But throughout her effort and influence to make me a good person, I never once agreed wiith a 3 gods in 1 formula! I knew it as wrong when I was a little boy. I knew it as a wrong path leading to failure in the day of Judgement. In all throughout my life journey, I come in contact with Christians; men and women. Heck I was married to one, and I have two grown sons with her. I knew her ways of worship is not something I want. My soul disagrees with all the multiple gods, the cross, the convoluted and corrupt book, and the fact that there is no order in this religion called Christianity are all part of my never want to be one. I know their women can throw down now. Why not. They believe that you can do whatever you want as long as you believe in the blood, thats alright.

For me, showing me the twin/bad boys, so easily and quickly is not enough. I want my polished diamond to be wrapped in soft silk. Then another layer, and yet another, etc. I want to be the one who can unwrap it, since I am not interested in community chest/property!

I am a muslim because my soul agees with the religion. The food of my soul is worship of that One Whole Lord/God without a partner! I am very comfortable in my skin that One Master is definitely better than 3 competing with themselves, or even not. If you don't believe me, go ask people who are in partnership in an organization. How is it possible that there gods are in agreement all the time? A god that has a son is a useless god, and actually not a God! I wonder what the purpose of having that son is? Is it to take over after his demise, or what exactly?

Only a man without a beneficial knowledge of God will say God is three in one or He has a son. Allah says in Surah Mariam that everything in heavens and on earth comes to Him, only as servant/slave! That includes Jesus!

@Noetic

12. Does ur bible ever mention "prophet" mohammed.

The bible NEVER mentioned mohammed by name, but he was one of the FALSE prophets Jesus spoke about in Mathew 24.
It has been repeatedly established on this forum that mohammed is a FALSE prophet.

The Old testament of of the Jews, whom Jesus came specifically for does not mention Jesus name. I see that the Jews do not accept him. These are the inferences of your piece about Muhammad. I think the Jews willfeel the exact same way about Jesus when they are asked. I have a whole lot of them as business associates. I am sure that if you are correct about Muhammad (AS), the Jews will be correct about Jesus (AS)!

Will it not be ironic that if Muhammad is a false prophet, that his religion holds n for 1400 years and gaining on Christianity after it has long surpassed the Jewish faith! I guess a supposed false prophet ways that is gaining on the supposed truth, after it has already surpassed another truth, is not false afterall. As we observed, from the Quran and the ahadith, we can not see anything that Muhammad is associated with that have been found to be false. Is there any?

But Christian god, Jesus and Prophet Moses of the Jews, none of thesem knew the time of the hour, nor the nature of the soul. I guess neither Moses nor jesus is therefore more knowledgeable than Muhammad.

13. Your bible is corrupt. . .I can show u the contradictions.

I agree that the bible is corrupt. . . the corrupt version is called KORAN.

The Quran (not koran, if you are truly educated) is not been referred to as a version of the Bible. Not by Muslims and when ignorant people refer to it, since the are not Muslims as the Bible, we quickly correct them. I guess you are wrong once again. But wait, tey are talking about corruptions and contradictions in the pages of the Bible.

For example, you claim that the Bible is the immutable word of God. But we find words of Paul in the Corinthians and Galathianss; Count it with me please: 1 Cor 7:25, Paul used the phrase: My opinion. There is no way God is talking here! Next verse; "I think", then Verse 40: Acording to my opinion, and in galathians 5: 2, he said: See, I Paul am telling you, ! If this is your God talking, ten paul is also your god, you big time idol worshipper!

14. Is mohammed the Holy spirit?

No muslim has ever said Muhammad is the holy spirit. Quran did not say it, and the Ahadith did not say it! The Holy spirit is Malaika Jibril. I will give you many names for Malaika Jibril sometimes in the future, if yo can handle it. By the way who is the holy spirit in the bible? Whats his name? You have to give proper name since you hae been bold enough to say that Father is yahweh/jehovah, even though Jesus himself said God is Eloi. I wonder which one of you is lying? Liar.

I believe that the koran has the sufficient answer. Here is what it says in 2:87

[2:87] We gave Moses the scripture, and subsequent to him we sent other messengers, and we gave Jesus, son of Mary, profound miracles and supported him with the Holy Spirit. Is it not a fact that every time a messenger went to you with anything you disliked, your ego caused you to be arrogant? Some of them you rejected, and some of them you killed.

Who was the holy spirit that was sent with Jesus? He (holy spirit) could not have been mohammed, since mohammed was not born until 600 years after Jesus.

And it is very clear that Angel Gabreil is the holy spirit. As angel (spirit) in human form, he came to tell mary about the impending creation of God to come to arth, as a prophet through her womb, without the aid of a human father. Before the creation of Jesus, Allah has created many beings in many different ways that he chose. I have no idea where you conclude that the Muslims said that the holyspirit who supported Jesus was Muhammad.

But wait, Jesus himself used spirit to describe prophet. The Muslims say that Muhammad was the another comforter. For there must be a previous comforter before there is another comforter. Do you know who was the previous comforter before the another comforter, will actually make sense? I need proper name, please. Can you tell me what Ahamad means? That another name of Muhammad. There are still other names that he has.

Your knowledge is poor, man.

15. Allah is Jehovah God.

Allah is Eoloi.Where you get your Jehovah beats me.

It has been repeatedly established on this forum that allah is an idol with a wife called allat and together they have three daughters. mohammed's father was called abd-allah, meaning slave of allah. who was the allah he was serving,? since he died before mohammed was born?

And we see that all idols were eradicated out of Masjid Haram, the place where Kaaba is. Does an idol (man made) eradicates itself? Tis this not a lie, again, my your unpure heart? Below is the verses of Surah Najm where the pagan arab idols are mentioned. They were not mentioned in any relevance to the Muslims, but in rebuking the pagans! You Noetic2, and your kind are pagans of a different sort; you have been given book before.

Please have the human decency to read the hilighted of Surah Najm:


53:1 Muhsin Khan: By the star when it goes down, (or vanishes).
53:2 Muhsin Khan: Your companion (Muhammad SAW) has neither gone astray nor has erred.
53:3 Muhsin Khan: Nor does he speak of (his own) desire.
53:4 Muhsin Khan: It is only an Inspiration that is inspired.
53:5 Muhsin Khan: He has been taught (this Quran) by one mighty in power [Jibrael (Gabriel)].
53:6 Muhsin Khan: Dhu Mirrah (free from any defect in body and mind), Fastawa [then he (Jibrael - Gabriel) rose and became stable]. [Tafsir At-Tabari].
53:7 Muhsin Khan: While he [Jibrael (Gabriel)] was in the highest part of the horizon,
53:8 Muhsin Khan: Then he [Jibrael (Gabriel)] approached and came closer,
53:9 Muhsin Khan: And was at a distance of two bows' length or (even) nearer,
53:10 Muhsin Khan: So did (Allah) convey the Inspiration to His slave [Muhammad SAW through Jibrael (Gabriel) ].
53:11 Muhsin Khan: The (Prophet's) heart lied not (in seeing) what he (Muhammad SAW) saw.
53:12 Muhsin Khan: Will you then dispute with him (Muhammad SAW) about what he saw [during the Mi'raj: (Ascent of the Prophet SAW over the seven heavens)].
53:13 Muhsin Khan: And indeed he (Muhammad SAW) saw him [Jibrael (Gabriel)] at a second descent (i.e. another time).
53:14 Muhsin Khan: Near Sidrat-ul-Muntaha [lote-tree of the utmost boundary (beyond which none can pass)],
53:15 Muhsin Khan: Near it is the Paradise of Abode.
53:16 Muhsin Khan: When that covered the lote-tree which did cover it!
53:17 Muhsin Khan: The sight (of Prophet Muhammad SAW) turned not aside (right or left), nor it transgressed beyond (the) limit (ordained for it).
53:18 Muhsin Khan: Indeed he (Muhammad SAW) did see, of the Greatest Signs, of his Lord (Allah).
53:19 Muhsin Khan: Have you then considered Al-Lat, and Al-'Uzza (two idols of the pagan Arabs).
53:20 Muhsin Khan: And Manat (another idol of the pagan Arabs), the other third?
53:21 Muhsin Khan: Is it for you the males and for Him the females?
53:22 Muhsin Khan: That indeed is a division most unfair!
53:23 Muhsin Khan: They are but names which you have named, you and your fathers, for which Allah has sent down no authority. They follow but a guess and that which they themselves desire, whereas there has surely come to them the Guidance from their Lord! Noetic2 o; where is it that the Quran states that any of these idols is Allahs's daughter? Or is the wife of Allah in this verse? Have you have no shame?

53:24 Muhsin Khan: Or shall man have what he wishes?
53:25 Muhsin Khan: But to Allah belongs the last (Hereafter) and the first (the world).
53:26 Muhsin Khan: And there are many angels in the heavens, whose intercession will avail nothing except after Allah has given leave for whom He wills and pleases.
53:27 Muhsin Khan: Verily, those who believe not in the Hereafter, name the angels with female names.
53:28 Muhsin Khan: While they have no knowledge thereof. They follow but a guess, and verily, guess is no substitute for the truth.
53:29 Muhsin Khan: Therefore withdraw (O Muhammad SAW) from him who turns away from Our Reminder (this Quran) and desires nothing but the life of this world.
53:30 Muhsin Khan: That is what they could reach of knowledge. Verily, your Lord it is He Who knows best him who goes astray from His Path, and He knows best him who receives guidance.
53:31 Muhsin Khan: And to Allah belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth, that He may requite those who do evil with that which they have done (i.e. punish them in Hell), and reward those who do good, with what is best (i.e. Paradise).

Here clearly Allah talks about evildoers, disbelievers going to hell. And bellievers going to Paradise. The greatest sign of doing good is true belief in islamic monotheism.

53:32 Muhsin Khan: Those who avoid great sins (see the Quran, Verses: 6:152,153) and Al-Fawahish (illegal sexual intercourse, etc.) except the small faults, verily, your Lord is of vast forgiveness. He knows you well when He created you from the earth (Adam), and when you were fetuses in your mothers' wombs. So ascribe not purity to yourselves. He knows best him who fears Allah and keep his duty to Him [i.e. those who are Al-Muttaqun (pious - see V.2:2)].

David you need to read this, so that you can for ever keep quite. Sins are listed as in Surah An Am verses 153 and 3. Illegal sexual intercourse is a sin, too. And you see that the small or minor sins He Almighty says he will overlook them. What a comfort. Do you have anything like that, except the "stale blood?" Should that not be dried up since over 2000 years now? Funny, man. Funny iea you have there.


53:33 Muhsin Khan: Did you (O Muhammad SAW) observe him who turned away (from Islam).
53:34 Muhsin Khan: And gave a little, then stopped (giving)?
53:35 Muhsin Khan: Is with him the knowledge of the unseen so that he sees?
53:36 Muhsin Khan: Or is he not informed with what is in the Pages (Scripture) of Musa (Moses),
53:37 Muhsin Khan: And of Ibrahim (Abraham) who fulfilled (or conveyed) all that (what Allah ordered him to do or convey),
53:38 Muhsin Khan: That no burdened person (with sins) shall bear the burden (sins) of another.
53:39 Muhsin Khan: And that man can have nothing but what he does (good or bad).
53:40 Muhsin Khan: And that his deeds will be seen,
53:41 Muhsin Khan: Then he will be recompensed with a full and the best recompense.
53:42 Muhsin Khan: And that to your Lord (Allah) is the End (Return of everything).
53:43 Muhsin Khan: And that it is He (Allah) Who makes (whom He wills) laugh, and makes (whom He wills) weep;
53:44 Muhsin Khan: And that it is He (Allah) Who causes death and gives life;
53:45 Muhsin Khan: And that He (Allah) creates the pairs, male and female,
53:46 Muhsin Khan: From Nutfah (drops of semen male and female discharges) when it is emitted;
53:47 Muhsin Khan: And that upon Him (Allah) is another bringing forth (Resurrection);
53:48 Muhsin Khan: And that it is He (Allah) Who gives much or a little (or gives wealth and contentment),
53:49 Muhsin Khan: And that He (Allah) is the Lord of Sirius (the star which the pagan Arabs used to worship);
53:50 Muhsin Khan: And that it is He (Allah) Who destroyed the former 'Ad (people),
53:51 Muhsin Khan: And Thamud (people). He spared none of them.
53:52 Muhsin Khan: And the people of Nuh (Noah) aforetime, verily, they were more unjust and more rebellious and transgressing [in disobeying Allah and His Messenger Nuh (Noah) ].
53:53 Muhsin Khan: And He destroyed the overthrown cities [of Sodom to which Prophet Lout (Lot) was sent].
53:54 Muhsin Khan: So there covered them that which did cover (i.e. torment with stones).
53:55 Muhsin Khan: Then which of the Graces of your Lord (O man!) will you doubt.
53:56 Muhsin Khan: This (Muhammad SAW) is a warner (Messenger) of the (series of) warners (Messengers) of old.

How is it that Muhammad (AS) is then a false prophet, when he went to heavens and back, in a part of a single night? Even Obama accepted that fact.


53:57 Muhsin Khan: The Day of Resurrection draws near,
53:58 Muhsin Khan: None besides Allah can avert it, (or advance it, or delay it).
53:59 Muhsin Khan: Do you then wonder at this recital (the Quran)?
53:60 Muhsin Khan: And you laugh at it and weep not,
53:61 Muhsin Khan: Wasting your (precious) lifetime in pastime and amusements (singing, etc.).
53:62 Muhsin Khan: So fall you down in prostration to Allah, and worship Him (Alone).

If the above is true, and I see no reason it should not be, then the idolators are those who worship anything other than Allah.

The contextual interpretation of GOD in other languages might have used the accronym Allah, but historical accounts have established that the islamic/arabian allah is NOT Jehovah GOD.

Ignorance is a mother! The one who knows the meaning of a word, best is the person whose mother tongue is word is spoken. Is there a possibility for a non Arab to know the meaning of a word, more than an arab? Is there a possibility for a non Yoruba to knowthe meaning of yoruba word more than a yoruba person? Can a person who has no igbo bloodline be better in igbo idiomatic expression than a person whose family is deeply rooted in igboland, and he/she grows up in that tribe.
This is your case and the cases of those Muta Mushrikun, who think they know more of arabic word root than Arabs!

Sometime, earlier this year, I was having a dialogue with a christian pastor who said something about Allah being an idol. When I pressed him hard, he had to admit that it is the only Deity that the Arabs did not have a stature to represent it. They knew, even then, just like my people the yoruba know that Allah is Eledumare. Yet neither of the two people in their paganic mindset had a symbol to say this is Allah or Eledumare. The arabs had all their idols being represented. But not Allah. The yorubas have their idols in their physical representations, too. But not Eledumare.

allah is definitely NOT Jehovah GOD.

Absolutely. While Allah does not have His name starting with lower case "A", we know that when your human god, Jesus cried out, he did not say Jehovah or yahweh. He said Eloi, which is very close to Allah. And the differences, is in their semitic pronounciations.

I got to amuse myself: Where is Jehovah or Yahweh in Allehluyah, or however you people write it? Considering that language is a pronounciation/verbal medium, is it impossible that we see that Eloi is Allah, and Allehluyah is equal to Yaa Allah, except that the yaa is at the end in Alehluyaa?

@Noetic2

7. The God/Jesus question.

No one has been able to scientifically prove that God does not exist.
No one has been able to intellectually prove that God does not exist.
No one has been able to logically prove convincingly that God does not exist.
No one has been able to scientifically or historically establish that Jesus did not Die for me.
No one has been able to scientifically establish that Jesus is not GOD.
No one has been able to scientifically or historically establish that Jesus did not resurrect.
No one has been able to scientifically establish that Jesus will not return to rapture the saints.

when they do. . .I will take them seriously and question my christian faith.

David, am sure your blindness will not let you see my point. Exactly the same reason Noetic have not even have the decency to quote Mariam verse 71, as it is stated in Quran. I see Atlantic ocean from my window. And each time that amabout to make magrib prayer, I look at the setting of the sun effect on the water. It is always murky. Murky means unclear, dark. And I have asked you to help your conscience and simply perform an experiment to disproof the Quran. You have not done so. And with this, should your words have so much weight as a mstard seed? I think not.

Now, Noetic. If Jesus died at all, which did not happen, he definitely did not die for you. Proof is that you are not from the children of Israel the people he was sent to shepard. Read your Bible again. Now significally, we have seen people who were presumed death and later, came back life. They normally call this penomenon "near death experience." Some people remain in coma for long time and they come out from it. I do not want to beat your dead horse too much.

If Jesus is God, who was this God praying to? His disciples heard him cried, wept, etc to a Greater power the Real God that he petitioned. I am sure you know he prayed many times to a God in the prayers that he made in the Garden of geshemane?maybe you don't know and there lies your reason for assuming that Jesus is God. But wait; who is the Eloi that jesus was complaining to that he forsook him? A god that is compalining that another God forsake him, could not be a real god. Or in your own mind, can he and how many gods are there, then? Can a god be begging himself, praying to himself and finally complained that he forsook himself? What a bunch of moronic statement, if that is a god!

Ressurection will mean a person already died and then got back up. But if a person did not die, say deep in his sleep that no sign of life exist just by looking. Could such a person be considered a ressurected being as he suddenly became conscious after such a deep slumber? Such is the case of Jesus, since he did not have any rigormortis and it is unusual and not Jewish custom that people keep their dead overnight and also rob oil on the wounds of dead people as if to hope that the sores/wounds heal up.

Rapture will happen when Jerry Fahwel wakes up! Haa, unfortunately he died waiting for rapture. Wait my man. You will get old and die off, while you are stil waiting. Your intention to cheat death, will be wasted. Have you ever seen a saint who did not die? Is there a disciple of Jesus still on earth? Could you be more important to Jesus that any of them? By the way, Jesus promised to return before they died off. I guess he had not returned and they are all dead, close to 2000 years now. Another Biblical prophesy that was unfulfilled! A god who can not fulfill promise is no God!

8. My Cravings are not disposed.

I want to be wealthy and healthy in life, I want to be successful in my endeavours and chosen field.
I want to excel exceptionally. I want to live a long and fulfilling life. does He oppose all of this things? . . . NO

The tallest building are in the lands of the arabs. If material success is the yardstick for proof of God in your mind, can anyone blame the hindus, or the japanese in the gods that they worship?

Seek first the kingdom of GOD and every other thing shall follow. All I have to do is Ask in prayer Mathew 7:7. Not forgetting that He already has a good plan for me . . .Jeremiah 29:11

Jeremiah. Is that from the Gospel of Jesus? LOL. This dude lives in fantasy.

9. what's there to loose

Lets assume I die as an ATHEIST:

if truly I find out that there is no god. . . .then like every other person i have simply passed away.
if I find out that allah is "GOD". . . . .then I have simply found myself on the wrong side of a bllod-thrsty god. . . I go to hell.
if truly Jesus is GOD . . . .then I am hell bound for failing to acknowledge His gift of salvation.

I all of my reading the Quran, and in the few years that I read the Bible in High School, the Bible showed more blood letting than what I will find in the Quran. The Old Testament in the time of Moses perished a great civilation known as Egypt. Then the next 40 years in the "desert" was used to ethnically cleansed people and groups all the way to the "promised land." And all through the period of their settling in the promised land to just before Jesus came with his mission, there were wars and more wars. Under David and beyond. Unfortunately, Noetic, you did not mention the fact that if judaism is the right religion, you will be doomed, yet again! In three conditions you are doomed.

And as for me, Jesus is the holder of the key to paradise, since muslims believe that he is a prophet, and he has a God who sent him, we will enter paradise with him. If its Moses, the same condition applies. If its Muhammad, we the Muslims have the same specific chance. You at best have a single chance, except that you blow it, by saying that jesus is god, when clearly he has a Lord (Eloi) whom he cried out to!

Atheism is a loose-loose situation.



Lets assume I die as a DEVOUT and FAITHFULL MUSLIM:

If I find out that there is no god . . . . .like every one else, I simply pass away.
If I find out that my allah is god. . . . . . I go to HELL FIRE even as a devout and faithfull muslim (sura 19:71-72)
If I find out that Jesus is GOD . . . . . I go to hell for failing to acknowledge His gift of salvation.

Islam is a loose-loose situation.

You are piece of work by your lies. Here is Mariam and the verse that you misquoted, (71)

19:69 Muhsin Khan: Then indeed We shall drag out from every sect all those who were worst in obstinate rebellion against the Most Beneficent (Allah).
19:70 Muhsin Khan: Then, verily, We know best those who are most worthy of being burnt therein.
19:71 Muhsin Khan: There is not one of you but will pass over it (Hell); this is with your Lord; a Decree which must be accomplished.
19:72 Muhsin Khan: Then We shall save those who use to fear Allah and were dutiful to Him. And We shall leave the Zalimun (polytheists and wrongdoers, etc.) therein (humbled) to their knees (in Hell).
19:73 Muhsin Khan: And when Our Clear Verses are recited to them, those who disbelieve (the rich and strong among the pagans of Quraish who live a life of luxury) say to those who believe (the weak, poor companions of Prophet Muhammad SAW who have a hard life): "Which of the two groups (i.e. believers and disbelievers) is best in (point of) position and as regards station (place of council for consultation)."

A person who understands english (I hope you do since you live in England) will be able to tell that the you in verse 71 did not point exclusively to Muslims alone. It is inclusive of all, including the muslims. But yet it did not say inside the Hellfire. It specifically says pass over it (hell). When a person passes over a river, he does so through a means, a permanently fixed structure, a bridge. Passing through a bridge does not mean that you will ford through the water. It does not even mean that you will see the water below. It does not mean that you have to be splashed by the water.

Verse 72 expalin the condition of the believers; as that, even though you are to pass over it, you will be saved from falling or going into it. However, the condition of the disbelievers (christians are among them) is explained that they will have to be in it, as they will fall into it and be left in therein as their home/abode.

When I die as a FAITHFULL CHRISTIAN who enjoys the GRACE of the father:
if I find out that there is no god. . . . .like every one else, I simply pass away.
If I find out that allah is "GOD". . . , I go to hell, but bear in mind that all FAITHFULL and DEVOUT muslims who diligently served allah will also be with me in hell (sura 19:71-72).
If I find out that Jesus is INDEED GOD . . . . .I inherit eternal life and reign with HIM for eternity because I have acknowledged His gift of salvation and I am an heir by grace.

Christianity is a WIN-WIN situation. If the bookmakers where to place odds on these three scenarios, which do u think will be the favourite?

There is no winning in Christianity. It is a lose lose all the way for you. Reason is that you have three gods, man. And which one of them is real and independent of the other two? Think hard before you answer. Jesus is reported in the Bible to reject at least some of you Christians who are therefore condemned to the lake of fire. Incidentally, these people among you are predicted to telljesus that they performed major miracles in his name. I guess these are major believers. Yet they end up in Fire lake. have you performed enough major mracles as in the same level as these people rejected by Jesus? If you havent, you will definitely end up in hell. If you did, you will still end up in hell based on your Bible saying so.

Please give me a single verse of the Quran that says Muslims will be in hell, except the Hypocrites who say he is but truly not! Am waiting, Noetic. This is nonsensical and chaotic! lol.

10. Jesus Bridged the gap.

What is the gap? The gap is my craving for answer to certain questions that question my christian faith.
some of the questions are: who is God? who created God? where was God's beginning? How was God made? whats life like after death? what happens when I die? what if there is no GOD? what id GOD's ontology? et all.

But since I acknowledged the gift of salvation from Jesus, I have received a complete understanding of these questions and subjects which explains my confidence and ability to addressing these issues when ever they are raised on this forum.

I could go on and on, cos I have numerous reasons to be a christian.

Unfortunately for you, the gap that Jesus is trying to bridgefor you does not exist in Islam. Read Surah Fatihah.

@Noetic2:

2. Salvation, Reinstitution, Curiosity.

Considering all the religions that exist, there is bound to be one true one. No religion offers the restitution of my sins (islam says I have to go to hell as a faithful muslim to pay for my own sins), No religion offers me a relationship with the maker (a muslim is merely a messenger/slave) No religion offers restitution for my sins. . .Are the requirements of my religion synonymous to my convictions? (i mean the dictates of my conscience) I am also bound by curiosity to believe that we could not just have bumped into this world, there must have been a beginning somewhere. where was this beginning? who made it? when? is there a way I can reach this person?

Actually, if I look at your opinion of the statement of Surah Mariam verse 71, as a yardstck of your honesty, I will deem you a big liar. Your quote of this verse is quite wrong. There is no where that Allah says that Muslims will go to Hell, fisrt or at anytime, except the hypocrites among them. But there are verses that say that Muslims true believers will be mercied and go to Paradise directly. I will simply quote the verse you have been shamelessly misquoting to point out your "evil heart". I guess a man with evl in his heart will never enter paradise.

19:70 Muhsin Khan: Then, verily, We know best those who are most worthy of being burnt therein.
19:71 Muhsin Khan: There is not one of you but will pass over it (Hell); this is with your Lord; a Decree which must be accomplished.
This very verse proves that you have lied, once again. When will you speak any truth?

I dont want to bore u with the details. Only JESUS offers a restitution for my sins. He already paid the price. I have an established personal relationship with Him that enables me call Him Father. He answers me when I call on Him.

If Jesus paid a price for your sin, I wonder if any christian will enter the lake of fire? But then the Bible states that Jesus mentioned lake of fire while talking to his listeners. The lake of fire is mentioned relative to those who will claim that they are his followers. I do not want to belabor this issue, except that you will also read it in the Bible that in the day of Judgement, some of his followers will be heading to hell/lake of fire. They will want Jesus to intervein. Hwe will not, even as they say that they that they performed many a miracle in his name. Yet at the end these people will end up right there, in the lake of fire! I guess the payment was a mirage.

His requirements from me do not in any way contradict the dictates of my conscience. His only requirement to me is to love everyone like He loves me.

I wonder if Jesus tolf you to lie so much, as I have indicated above? Sorry, it is the very thing, lie that is in your heart/conscience. How can a blatant liar be a lover of his neighbor?

No other religion or knowledge has been able to establish the beginning of all things. u might argue contrary for islam but see the FAQ below on: is the bible corrupt?

I will wait for the smoking gun that you discovered in Quran. Then I am certain that I will find your lies, again.

Believe in Jesus makes me a better person, my actions an attempt to make the world a better place and puts me at peace with myself in this world and the one to come.

Where does the lie fit in your being a better person? I think you are grand standing. So far you have not said anything truthful about Islam. I aught to know; its the religion that I have practiced consistently for over half a century. And I read Quran, daily. At least in the past 10 years.

3. Women Rights/ Human Rights/Works of The spirit.

I love to protect the defenceless. women, children, poor people, orphans, convicted and condemend or ostracised people, including children, prostitutes, destitutes and refugees. I love to do my little bits to make the world a better place. Does my faith/believe in Jesus prevents me from doing this? NO. . . It actually considers them as good deeds.

I hate the incessant violations of human/women rights especially in islamic and atheist (communist) countries. I want to make the world a better place. The bible discourages me from beating my wife (when I marry one), divorce her by mouth 3 times, arrange temporary marriages et al . . ,  it encourages me to love her. The bible discourages me from condoning any form of evil (highlighted above) It encourages me to live above board. The bible (works of the spirit) conforms with my moral and personal convictions.

why would the bible tell me otherwise?

This guy is so pathetic. Your Bible is full of demeaning opinions about women. First the Bible blamed Eve for eating the forbidden fruit, which is a result for being kicked out of the garden of Eden! If I stop here and say no more, your Bible has proven you wrong. But let me say that your Bible cursed women to suffer as a result of this, during the childbearing, in form of labor pain. Adam was shielded from taking any responsibility. It is the woman to be blamed. The Bible also spoke about women becoming "property" of man in marriage. When either are married, there is no permission for divorce, regardless of what the condition that is prevailing in such a relationship. And no remarrying permissable, either.

From Quran, and I want you to do the research for yourself and try to disprove me: Adam and Eve bore the responsibility of going near the tree, equally. Allah also inspired them to seek forgiveness, and they were forgiven, without any residual sin, and there is no original sin to be transferred to teir progenies; man and woman.  No punishment of disobedience by making her experiencing any pain during childbirth. Since are forgiven and the slate is wipe clean of them. Quran gives responsibilities to man and woman equally; in worship and woman is honored to the point that man is warned not to sever the ties with the womb. Read surah Nisaa; Woman. Also, when Muhammad (AS) was asked about who to give and what amount, mother was first, and her share is 3 times that of the father, who gets his single share as the fourth portion.  Women are to keep their family name, even after marriage. And if in case of divorce, which is a natural thing among mankind, man is cautioned not to ask any portion of the dowry back. Islam does not impose inhumane and unattainable conditions in marriage. A wife is not obligated to prepare her husband's meals. I guess I find you lying , again.

But wait, Islam is the first to give equality to women, by allowing them to own properties and forbids the preislamic notion that women are not desireable as a man's offspring. Islam forced the Arabs to never kill their daughters.

4. A true Helper.

I am encouraged to ask and receive. I am encouraged to seek for help from HIM at all times. He says He shall neither leave nor forsake me. Has He been true to His word? has He answered whenever I call? Has He been my help at all time? Does He inspire, guide and direct me? Do I get personal and exclusive miracles from Him, which otherwise could not have been resolved by any physical or intelligent means? Do I trust HIM based on the events of yesterday to take care of my future? Has HE been faithful to me?

The answer to all those is a bold YES. christianity is not a mere religion. It is a relationship with the father. A relationship is a two way traffic. If the answer to any of the above questions was No. . . then I certainly wouldnt be a christian. He has been faithful, I have nothing to gain by living in denial. . . .If Jesus has not been faithful to me. . . then I am one of the most stupid persons on the planet to remain a christian.

A casual read of your piece, exposes your saying that Jesus is your father. Please read the part where you said that Jesus paid the restitution for your sin. Now, if you look above, where you are establishing your relationship with "father", it is important to note that if Jesus is still your father, then you must be the grandchild to the father of Jesus. The reason am deducing this point, is that if the father, is Jesus, by your statement here, you or the bible is lying. We already know that Jesus is different from "father" in the Bible. If they are the same, then they all died, when you said Jesus died. I wonder if a god that dies, and not beyond and above experiencing death is worthy of any worship? Definitely not mine. No wonder the Jews did not believe your Jesus not even as a prophet.

By the way, what happened to those Christians who are dirt poor? They never asked?

But if all of the above is true. . . do I have any reason to stop being a christian?. . . would u?

Except that none of them is true. I guess you if a single Christian who reads the Bible as must as you do, with the same level of belief as you and even do all those things that you accrued to your reason for emaining a Christian, is a destitute, or experiences less success than you, your proposition of your god and religion is a sham. But there is a load of them all over the world. Take a look at the poverty in the Christian community in Nigeria or any place of your chice. I see a bunch of them in America. God help us, if we beleive in a god that dies, unable to know all things.

medicine and science are limited in their knowledge to the issues of life. when medical knowledge cannot resolve a disease, Doctor Jesus has been faithfull enough to heal as evidenced in the christian community world wide.

You are kidding me. Jesus who could not prevent his own death, according to your Bible, is now a Doctor? Osisi, this dude, Noetic is cheapening your profession. Noetic, I have news for you. A whole bunch of Christians are sick and much have died from their sicknesses. Even in a mundane sick as simple as "Swine Flu!" What kind of a doctor is this?

5. The real Me is developed.

I discovered my identity ONLY as a conscious/rational christian. I do not intend to share this details as they are very personal.

He continuosly guides and directs me by giving me promises, assurances and re-assurances all of which are backed with fulfilment. He backs them up with personal revelations, that could not have been gotten elsewhere. I have a detailed peace of mind.

I cannot emphasise on this point, as it is very very personal.

Easy way to copout; its personal. Brother!

6. The Faith Question.

The every day non-christian (atheist) wonders why I am so stupid to express faith in GOD. He refres to such faith as mental and psycological weakness that requires the need for a GOD. I believe that such a person lacks the basic understanding of what faith entails. Faith literarily involves a belief of a future event that does not correspond to present day reality.

Take for instance, an atheist wallowing in poverty in the slums of ajegunle, believes that one-day he will fly to london to seek greener pastures. There is no basis for his belief, cos he is an orphan with no relative, he is jobless and looking at it from an objective point of view, it is impossible for him to obtain a visa, as he does not have the resources to get one. what would he tell the ECO he wants to come and do in the uk?

But he holds on to his beliefs anyway. . . .that's called faith. Its only a pity that his faith is baseless and does not correspond or link to the all faithfull GOD.

I excercise my faith in the ONE who has been faithful since the very beginning.

I will not make any response concerning your talk withatheist from Ajegunle, except that he his determined to achieve his objective of travelling to England. Allah the Almighty covers everyone, Whom He created. He gives to all. His Mercy in this world, where everyone is provided for, and allowed to change his way from misguidance to proper guidance is available, through freewill.

@Noetic2: « on: Today at 10:19:54 PM »

I have already told u why I am not an atheist https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-279631.0.html
I also told u why I am not a muslim https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-280415.0.html
I think it is fair i tell u why I am a christian

let me start by stating that I did not inherit christianity, was not born a christian neither was i a miracle seeker who turned to christianity (I have nothing against this group of people, just feel the need to make the clarification). I am a rational believer of the christian faith, which explains why I can CONFIDENTLY debate and defend my beliefs, quite unlike the atheist who CANNOT produce a scientific or intellectual evidence to support their belief/disbelief in the non-existence of GOD, or the muslims who cannot simply state why exactly they are muslims. . . . . this thread is not about the atheist or muslims. . . . It is simply to educate everyone about why I am a christian.

Babs787, on Nairaland, my mother Victoria Mariam, my wife Zainab, are people who did not inherit Islam. Yet today they are good Muslims. Babs787, is enough as evidence to diminsh if not dismiss your "special discovery; no explanation you have given, except being a 'rational believer, whatever that means'", subtle indication of how special Christianity is. Interestingly, as an african, I will say that I did not inherit Islam, too. Afterall, my mother was a greater influence in my life, while I was a child. In a way am also an example of the goodness of Islam over Christianity's 3 gods in one doctrine.

Others and I have stated in writing that the 3 gods in one is a great endictment against Christianity. The One Single God, Who is identified by proper name, Allah is what we opted for. Reason; He is capable of doing all this. Jesus couldn't do all things. Allah is Knower of all things, while Jesus did not even know the time of the hour. Allah never dies, while you say that Jesus died. Who in his/her sane mind will worship a "god" who hasthe same pitfalls, weaknesses as the worshippers?

So as usual I objectively asked myself, why EXACTLY am I a christian? The following are the intellectually rich reasons I could come up with.

And read how easily I expose the half baked reasons. I wonder what intellectuality means then?

1. The fair reward:

I believe u know what christianity is all about. Its simply about my acknowledgement and acceptance of Christ as my Lord and GOD and the acceptance of His Gift of Salvation.
In return Jesus expects me to reflect the works of the spirit as stated in Galatians 5:22-23

Is this fair reward? But let me leave that alone for a moment so that I can expose how weak your intellectual statements are.
When you are defending your belief in Jesus, you should have used his statements (Gospels) to try to defend it. Not Galatians from Paul. How can you justify this blunder? This is a worse kind of matriculated presentations.

I had thought though that you, a christian by just simply "believeing in the death" you should be free to do whatever you want. Yet still get to heaven? The muslims, not only that they rely on confirmed Mercy of Allah on just true belief in Oneness and worshipping God. They are giving vivid description of Paradise. It is something that they can hope for. Unlike your heaven where you are at best not in hell, but no food, or nothing human mind can capture as enjoyment or fruit and sign of felicity.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
—Galatians 5:22-23 and also to abide by His new commandment stated in John 215:12 . . .to love one another as He has loved us.

Galatians again? Where is Gospel of Jesus? Haa. John 215;12, finally redefining a new law. I guess the old laws are now irrelevant. Yet Jesus said with his own mouth that he did not come to destroy the laws and the prophets and warned no one should after him. But here is your departure from the very injuction. If love your neighbor as yourself is the only ingredient, then what happened to doing good work? Is there a need? If the law is just love one another, why are you listing self control, etc?

So when as a faithful christian I die, and also fulfill all of these commandments above (bear in mind that grace not works is the basis of gaining eternity with GOD) for it is written in hebrews 9:27 that . . .
it is appointed unto men to die once, after this judgement follows.

Where and when did Jesus preached in the Book of Hebrew? I though his preachings were capture in the Gospels?
If I take your one time death on man and apply it to Jesus, it will prove that Jesus was not more than man. This is the reason that we in Islam say that you are an idolater.

what do I get as a reward for my faithfulness?
I gain eternity with God. . . .where there is no sorrow, tears, sickness, fear or anything.
Where all that rules and reigns is LOVE.
[/quote[

What happened to food, etc? None for you. Just imagine how empty your reward is. Nothing human can relate to in it. No homes, no reuniting families together, if you all enter heaven. No nothing.

I believe that this reward is fair and just. Simply because, the requirements of attaining this reward does not involve me doing anything against the dictates of my conscience. The reward in itself also removes all the limitations I have ever faced as a person. . .with a chance to reign for eternity with Christ. . .never to die again.

Let me ask you, do you naturally have self control, love, peace, patience, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness, goodness? As a yoruba man, the expression of Surulere is not acceptable, whreas Olrunshogo is what everyone is look for, completely destroys your statement that patience is second nature with you. I bet if there is no law against any of those things you are claiming that is second nature to you, you would no show any sign that you are kind, (your writings against the Islam and Muslims betrays your inner quality. It is no kindness), etc.

@Sexyleamon: It will be impossible to argue, with sincere heart, (except the idolatry sign of crosing heart) that Jesus is christian, hence his followers are Christians. Are his folowers, religiously Jews? The answer is obvious. That leaves the Muslims to the question; the muslims say they are.

I hope you can say why you think the muslims are. Please be logical and no emotional outburst please.

THe 6 millions of $Osisi s dwindling down to zero. Soon it will be negetative.