₦airaland Forum

One more point I need to make to differentiate between the original Igbo marriage and current western style one, is that in the dissolution of marriage in ancestral Nnewi, either party can simply walk away without raising any dust. The woman can simply leave her marital home and follow any man who would accept her as wife. She performs a simple ritual in the public: she kneels down before her new husband and offers him a little table knife called mma ekwu (used to peel yams and cocoyams). Once he accepts it from her, he then proceeds to go and pay her bride price. From that day, she becomes his wife. HOWEVER, ALL the children she had for her previous husband MUST STAY with her previous husband. She cannot go into the new marriage with the children of the first marriage. Men hardly sent their wives packing except she committed an act capable of leading to death of a family member. This act of sending her away is even performed by the women of the clan -the umu ada- not by the man. It actually goes deeper, but suffice to say that dissolution of marriages did not involve lengthy litigation and sharing of properties.

In western style marriages, the institution itself is similar to a business partnership between two equals. Of course there are intricacies like the fact that women own children in western style marriages; but then, it is usually the father of the woman that pays for weddings! When we copied, we did so while leaving the burden of weddings on the man, and of course the children are his too! lol, but I digress! I don't want to derail the topic.

Summary: In original Igbo culture, marriages are ONLY for having children. I await any person who would prove me wrong on this.
In western culture (which we have adopted in marriages these days), IT IS NOT! If it is not, then, why shouldn't same sex couples marry?

@felis

You make some valid points. Please note that I do not say this because my "church" supports it. NOPE.
BTW I do not believe in the current church we have on earth today. I believe in the original church; the one Jesus Christ himself prophesied and established himself: THE ONE NOT BUILT BY HANDS -the true followers of Jesus Christ who have accepted him as their saviour.
God does not dwell in any temple built by man. He dwells inside us, his children. I don't want to go spiritual on this topic. I am just looking at it based on facts facing me.

afam4eva: Firstly, we have to actually define what love means. Is it exactly as it relates to foreign culture or relative to different cultures. What exactly does it mean?

As for same sexx marriages, i abhor the thought in it's entirety but will not go up in arms to deny people the right to do whatever they want, I think it's discriminatory to do so. If we can condone polygamy, sexx before marriage, pregnancy before marriage then why is same sexx marriage any different. We can say it's alien. What in this world was not alien at one point or the other? It was once alien for a black person to be seen close to whites or even attempting to enjoy the perks that whites enjoyed. But today, blacks are seen as equals, at least to some reasonable extent. Just imagine if the whites all went up in arms then saying that they can't allow blacks to be given those privileges because they're it's alien to do so.

But @Onlytruth, i really want to support the Anglican church's position on this. Are they saying that same sexx marriage is a sin or are they just fighting for the equality of humans without necessarily encouraging people to be homosexuals?

The simplest definition of love in this context is PHYSICAL ATTRACTION between two people. In other words, canal attraction. You and I may not understand it or think it is possible, but we know that people involved in "love" do things like kissing for example.

I agree that no culture is without importation. That is why I say that what we have in Igboland today is not the original Igbo marriage. If we were still practicing that original Igbo marriage (please note that I do not advocate either, I am saying that people should accept whatever cultural practice they adopted; warts and all), the issue of same sex marriage would NEVER even arise because the very nature of that marriage makes it impossible for the issue to arise.
In the new culture we adopted, the issue is there, and it is discriminatory to not accord same sex couples similar regard and protection.

Since the debate surrounding this issue started, I have refrained from even reading opinions posted on this site in threads addressing the topic. I deliberately avoided reading them because I don't want to be influenced by them in any way. I wanted to reach personal conclusions after long periods of reflection and thorough thinking. I did not (and still do not) want to be influenced by the "chatter".

To address the issue, I have to tie it down to the bottomline argument -IS BANNING OR REJECTION OF SAME SEX MARRIAGE DISCRIMINATORY?

I wish to state now that my opinion on this is not an attempt to tip the scale in either direction, but rather an attempt to embrace the truth, no matter whose ox may be gored at the end.

So, here we go!

In my humble opinion, the term "marriage" is universal in human culture, but the knots and bolts of it, "the devil-in-the-detail", is NOT universal in application. Let me rephrase it. Marriage does not necessarily mean the same thing to different cultures. I am not a trained sociologists, or historian, so I would confine myself to comparing between the Igbo (Nnewi) culture and those of the dominant colonial culture that gained the upper hand in Igboland. All I am doing here is to place the facts concerning the two cultures (Igbo and western) on the table, and then let the facts speak for themselves.

Like I stated already, the term "marriage" means different things to different nations and cultures on this earth. It is like "farming" for instance. Farming is usually shaped by environment, culture, history, religion. . .basically everything that is unique to any nation or cultural group. Even in Igboland, the farming techniques of Ezza people for example, is different from that of Nnewi people; nevertheless, both work for both peoples! Ndigbo say that "nku di na mba na eghelu mba nri" -the local firewoods make the best woods!

The art, or culture, of marriage is unique to different nations, just like farming. Each nation can decide to adopt a foreign farming technique (for whatever reason), and drop local one (for whatever reason too), and may live happily ever after with the adopted culture. What I frown at is for people to start making statements attacking and disparaging the same culture that they have willingly adopted, which (apparently) served them well through the years. If it didn't serve them well, well, they should drop it and adopt another; simple and short.

Marriage in original Igboland was a process whereby a man saw a woman, made the judgement that she was "fertile" (to bear children) and "strong" (to produce strong children who would work in the farm), and then went to ask for her hand in marriage. He didn't even go to ask the woman, he asked her father (though she would eventually decide whether to accept or stay in the marriage)! later. If she accepted the offer, judging by the man's appearance of "strength" (to protect her and and her children), and richness (to ensure that she and her children did not starve), she followed him home to HIS house after he has PAID her brideprice, to become his wife. From the moment the man paid the bride price, the woman became his, and EVERY of her children born inside that marriage automatically became his, whether he impregnated her or not (Nnewi culture).
The marriage was not based on "love" (a sexual affiliation between two people, which is often demonstrated through canal or conjugatory consummation). Marriage in Igbo culture was not based on that love. FACT. It was mainly an economic decision in the true sense of the word. Yes, it came with what I call "perks" (read se.x ) but it was never THE deciding factor in the process of chosing a spouse, both for the man and the woman. It was a movement upward in the socio-cultural-economic ladder. It was NEVER a partnership of equals, because the one (the man) PAID, for the other (the woman) for her fertility. If she came into the marriage, and failed to reproduce, the man usually married another wife. Simple. Notice that it was always the woman's "fault", because she really didn't always have to become pregnant by her husband (secret fact). She only needed to get pregnant, and the man gets a child. Simple. That is why she was blamed when she failed to produce a child. Modern Igbo have lost the history behind this practice, and it has led to all kinds of problems. The Igbo of Nnewi leapfrogged paternity test! It was (and still is) a wasted and really unnecessary exercise. That is why fatherlessness was completely alien to Igbo culture. Everybody had a PRESENT father. FACT.
So, you "marry" to reproduce in Igboland. Polygamy came about (in Igboland) partly as a stop-gap measure to solve the problem of infertility (in the woman). The Nnewi Igbo felt that the equation of reproduction could be effectively solved by solving ONE SIDE of the equation -the woman side. The man PAID to solve this equation on the woman side.

Now, in the western culture of marriage, it is an exercise that unites TWO equal human beings, who "love" each other. It is based entirely (or at least primarily) on LOVE -the physical attraction between two people. I could be wrong, but I have never come across any historical proof showing that the "love" needed to ALWAYS be between a man and a woman -NONE. This fact is silent of course, but very much there. That is why such marriages ALWAYS crumbles whenever one side stops LOVING the other. That is also why is it impossible to marry more than one person, because truly, one cannot love two or more people equally. The marriage -though it also assumes reproduction as in the Igbo one above- does not base on the reproduction. That is why there are MANY in western style marriages who are childless, and are very happy in it. FEW (if any) Igbo are happy in a childless marriage. FACT.

To reharsh; in Igboland, a marriage fails if the woman fails to produce a child. In western culture, a marriage fails if one side stops loving the other. Apples and oranges.

In Nigeria, what we have now is a conundrum of sorts, of mixed and mashed cultures, and has almost totally obsfucated the facts of each culture that we adopted. This confusion is self imposed though, and cannot be an excuse to abuse or maltreat people in Nigeria.

So, in my humble opinion, to deny two consenting adults the right to unite in western style marriage, is discriminatory.

I now understand why my church -the Anglican church of England- is effectively in support of same sex "marriage". It is an affirmation of existing cultural facts in England.
If there is a "Church of Igboland", such issue would never even arise, also, drawing from Igbo cultural facts.

:
are you not in nigeria? have you not seen how things operate
The only thing that can be ensured day and night is that a house will be where it's at. If he taxes commodities people will lie on their paper work, if he taxes income people will stop registering their labor, if he taxes heads people will hide. There's nothing permanent in nigeria that a person can't lie with outside of whether or not they own property, so it's that simple.

Oshiomole is right no this one. Look at the result of people not being taxed on building houses. People start a house anytime they get 5000 naira and leave thousands of abandoned structures all over the country for kidnappers and rapist to use, and soon terrorist if we're not mindful, as hide outs and head quarters.



Nigerians want a better country but they want to make sure they don't have to life a finger to make it happen. EVERY single improvement made to this country is opposed by Nigerians.

I am not in Nigeria, thank God! That is why I have a better view on this issue.
I bet you that even you have not REALLY sat down to think about this issue. If you have, you will RUN AWAY from the idea of taxing homes. The thing about public policy is that once introduced, it is very difficult, if not impossible, to reverse it. Be careful of what you wish for.

Taxing homes is the most dangerous public policy that I can think of. It has a ripple effect that its victims struggle to even understand, talk less of addressing.
It creates a HUGE problem for any nation.

Things I consider sacrosanct as far as taxation is concerned are: HOMES and HEALTHCARE.

Maybe one day you will understand.

If any public official even mutes this idea in the East, we Umuigbo will stone the person to death!

One more point.

Any state that cannot develop based on already existing stream of income from the federation account, and already existing income and corportate taxes, should be forced to merge with the next viable state, or be scrapped altogether. This is part of why I am against state creation in Nigeria.
We create too many unviable states, and some of these so called states start to experiment with some of the most dangerous policies known to man.
Soon they will start experimenting with exporting of humans as a business to generate tax revenue.

:
Because that same person will complain that he doesn't have a road to drive on.
Priorities people. There's no government without taxation. This whole time has been a free ride and it failed, but you still took it for granted, now you have to join the rest of the human race and pay taxes. Up Oshiomole for trying to combat federal dependency

My brother, with all due respect and all double emphasis, you are wrong on this issue.
You are mixing apples and oranges here. No sane 21st century human should be against ALL taxations. The topic is about taxation on HOUSES.
We pay all types of taxes in Nigeria, I can't even list all of them, but they include income tax and VAT. If you add corporate taxes to all other taxes already existing, Nigeria has no business taxing HOMES -the only safe abode of wealth, which makes it possible to grow and sustain wealth, a secure retirement environment, and an asset you can pass on to your children.

My main concern is that Nigeria is a copycat country with very little thinking going into public policy. Country A is doing, therefore it must be good for Nigeria!
We do this in many critical national items, and wonder why our country is perhaps the most chaotic country in Africa, and a midget with perpetual "potential" for gigantism.

If there are sane moderators in this forum, this topic should hit front page.

Yesterday, I was in a function meeting with a top PDP politician from Ebonyi state (names withheld), and one of the questions I asked him was why Ndigbo should be supporting GEJ, a very important question. His answer can be summarized thus: Igbo are "too close to Ijaw" to do otherwise. He gave so many instances.
He basically said that if not for GEJ understanding and reciprocating that feeling of brotherhood between Igbo and Ijaw, GEJ would certainly not be president, and even if he won, he would have been removed by now through foul means. He said that if GEJ behaved like the Harold Dappa Biriye type, he would have been removed since.
Now, I decided to compare his words with my personal observation of the person of Jonathan, and I concluded that Jonathan must be God sent to the Ijaw, Ndigbo and Southern Nigerians and even middle belters. He said a lot which I would not share here, but he assured me that Nigeria's future is more assured because of GEJ.
BTW I made sure that I took all his words with a huge pinch of salt because he is a PDP man, though he is not benefitting anything that I can see from Jonathan's presidency.

So, any Ijaw who come here to insult GEJ must be the greatest fool in Ijawland. That man may be the Nelson Mandela of Ijawland.

One of the reasons why Nigeria should be at least restructured or even divided is that we have not national "sameness".
I am particularly outraged that a Nigerian state . . . any Nigerian state, would copy this culture from overseas. In a country with mad herd mentality, I bet you that other states may copy this.
This must be rejected by any sane Nigerian. You pay income and corporate tax, and other taxes related to your expenditures; why on earth would anyone want you to pay tax on your house?

The sooner this country is divided, the better for everyone.
Nonsense.

ezeagu thanks a million for putting this thread back on track.
Nwanne you never fail to impress me. Eziokwu.
There are FEW of our folks that have your abilities when it comes to REAL issues. You understand what's up my brother.
Jisie ike.

BTW where is spyder? Did he abandon his thread?

0lumide: I say, Sanusi is nursing something!!!

Yes, he is likely nursing something, but if he means even 10% of all he's been saying lately (and I don't see why he wouldn't mean every word), then he remains the only person in the North so far that is qualified (in my own book) to vie for the presidency of Nigeria.
All others are waiting to share oil money and add zero to the system.

ebere1712: You said the same thing about the "drunken fisherman", yet he is your president. How are you going to stop the igbos By shitting in polythene bags all over lagos? Men you guys are bleeped for life. I will personally support another usman-dan-gay to go and seize another yoroslave territory. Look at a slave talking as if he has any say in the issue.

Una go wound person for here one day.

BTW he is spot on!

Sanusi should run for presidency on either Soludo\Sanusi or Sanusi\Soludo ticket.
In these two great Nigerians, there is abundance of hope for REAL LEADERSHIP. Both are gutsy, ambitious, BOLD and intelligent.
Most others (Fashola for example) don't have the guts to rule Nigeria. Quote me on that.

A council member suggested that we end this process earlier than scheduled because of loss of steam here. I think he has a point.
We should start to gather suggestions into one document and hopefully finish this either first or second week of December.

mankind777: He wondered why the Igbo ran back to the North after the civil war if they were so marginalised. “It is so easy to kill the Igbo because they own the sales of attractive items like cars, electronic items, building materials and others. The Yoruba man in the North or East is a low-lifer.

The man drives a taxi, while the wife sells amala. As soon as there is unrest, the wife puts the cooking pot in the taxi and home they go. “I am sure that we all know the number of Igbo in western states and Lagos compared to the number of Yoruba in eastern states. Let’s get real. If the union of Igbo and Hausa is not working since 1960 till date, then change your direction. You cannot repeat the same thing and get a different result.” He said he had put his war memoirs into print and it would be out soon.

[url][/url]http://247nigerianewsupdate.com/lies-achebe-told-about-the-civil-war-by-gen-alabi-isama/

The bolded are partly true though I personally believe that the main reason Igbo are easy to kill in Nigeria is because we have not embraced violence fully like those doing the killings. I will continue to say that the Igbo are the only highly progressive group (I know on earth) that frown at violence as part of their culture. Every other progressive group I know (please do your research) embrace violence as much as they embrace progress. Somehow Ndigbo have this skewed belief that others would be happy about their progress, and when they are killed, they become suprised. lol

Take your pick, is it the Jews, or the Chinese, or the Japanese, or the Irish or the Italians or the English, or the Germans. . . just take your pick, they have all (through the ages) accepted violence as natural part of life. We shall all die some day, but it only makes sense to die fighting. That is why some of the richest nations on earth in terms of size of economy, have the biggest military.
Igbo leaders have refused to tell Ndigbo the naked truth, maybe for fear that they may be the first victims of such an enlightened body of Ndigbo.

The truth is out there folks; embrace it!

Spyder880 thanks for all the pictures. Enugu has never let us down. I'm truly grateful to Chime for opening up Enugu for real development.
His tenure will encourage the next governor to aim higher.

Waiting (with the rest of my brothers) for the airport pictures.

odumchi: No worries. My hands have been very busy lately, but nevertheless, I've been following this thread. I'll reply to all messages, both online and offline, subsequently.

Eze-elect Odumchi, we are all very busy, so that would not be an acceptable excuse here o. Find time bros! This thread must be managed, supported, guided, fed and watered as we design things to guide our future.
IMHO you are needed here more than I.
Dalu so nwanne.

Odenigbo Aroli: With all due respect to your position which I Nri Priest played and integral role to bring you to and keep motivating and encouraging you I will emphatically say that you all WRONG ! Chime is working on the foundation that the past governors of Enugu has built while Obi is setting Anambra up for a greater height. You have started to compromise your identity because of your position here and that's not good for your image. I don't think you have been well educated on the condition of Anambra governance before Obi took over. There was absolutely no signs of government presence before Obi came in. We need to cut this man some slack. Anambra was created in '91 from the old Anambra and everything went to Enugu being the state capital. The fired all Anambra civil servants and left them with nothing. So much for the Igbo unity!

Odenigbo you and I know how that you are one man I particularly respect in this forum. Not just that; you are very close to my heart here, and you are one of the FEW Igbo that I promise myself that I must meet in real life. It is my most candid opinion that the greatest atrribute of Anambra citizens is our MATURITY. It has served us very well in Nigeria. I won't elaborate more on that.
Nwanne we all see the same things you see. I've had to engage some of the posters whom you were engaging, and I can tell you from personal experience that the only casualty of such fierce engagement is ALL OF US IGBO. If I would engage in exchanges that disempower me in Nigeria, why then am I a Nnewi man? (pun, pride and puff intended!)
Nna o buro ife nine ka mmadu nwelu efe ye. Ife anyi nine kwesilu idi neme ebe a bu ka anyi jikoo aka wee melie ndi ori na ndi ama na emegbu anyi na naijiria.
Nwanne biko rapu ife nine. Anyi nine nwe Enugu.

spyder880: I think its time our Eze on this forum says something to all these people diverting attention from my work in this thread. Eze, my respects, iga ano n' ulo ewu amuo nwa na eriri?

There is a limit to the level one can take provocation.

Oga spyder880, you fail my hand my brother. Is this the first time we've dealt with these types of issues on Nairaland? Even earlier in this thread, the issue cropped up. lol. Just ignore it.
Should we all be intimidated by personal views of individuals (some of which are very baseless)? Who in Igboland doesn't know that Enugu CITY (not the state BTW) -which this thread is really dedicated to -is our collective (Igbo or even Eastern) heritage, just as is ONITSHA, ABA and OWERRI? It is self explanatory: ENUGU CITY IS THE PRIDE OF THE EAST. If it will make some of these guys feel better, each person can plug his own town into the "variable" (to use a computer programming term), in this case the city itself, which can even be Awomamma in Imo state. To all baseless critics I say repeat after me, " "variable" (which is your town) is the pride of the East". Okwu agwu!

Please let's all calm down and celebrate a beautiful city given to us by God, which we are all jointly building (any Igbo who does not own a property in Enugu is yet to "arrive" ) . Let's all pray that current governor Sullivan Chime continues to do a great job for this city, and that the city will continue to make us all proud.
BTW I pray that other governors of towns which we all build together borrow a leaf from Chime to develop infrastructure which makes it attractive for us to go there and build.

Anybody who doesn't like my stand on this should wait for the next Eze who is just a little over one month away.

van bonattel: ANAMBRA

To whom much is given, much more is expected. And that is why I think Anambra state is underperforming! I no go hide am, i am supposed to be more defensive of this state because of my origins but a bad thing should be condemned. Peter obi is not doing his best in this our state. I once saw a picture of onisha where pigs were swimming in the mud in the middle of a very busy street!
Generally, the state lacks infastructure and security. Given the quality of human and material resources we have, we should rule the world, but everybody is making their own billions and abandoning group effort. The senators here should be pushing for better deals from Abuja but they are there fighting. Its a theater of the absurd, where everybody is a mini king and rules over nothing. Its a shame and a pity that some comments i read here are blindly praising Obi while he makes his billions and leaves the state looking poor.

My brother, if I have not already taken the title of "Ndu di n'eziokwu" I would have conferred you with that title because you captured the WHOLE TRUTH about my state Anambra.
I will illustrate a little.

Here in the US we have ASA (Anambra USA), and on several occassions, we STRUGGLE to implement some of easiest projects back in Nigeria. Even our medical missions back home is always a struggle. It has forced some of us to be more active in our local towns unions than the state one. Nnewi USA has achieved more than Anambra USA (can you believe that?! ). I am personally happy, however, because I was able to achieve the impossible with some of our (Anambra) people -we set up a JOINT BUSINESS VENTURE. It is a pilot scheme which no other Igbo state has achieved so far, but still it is not Anambra USA that created it, we did it as individual Anambrarians. We plan to expand it to include ALL Igbo.

I keep telling our people that the ONLY WAY FORWARD IS TOGETHER.
Igwe bu ike!

To be fair to Anambra, the same problem is found in all Igbo states, but we lament Anambra more because most Igbo would agree that the state has a huge potential if the people there can work together. Enough of this "everybody is king" nonsense because we will all go extinct if we don't drop it.
That is why our Eze Ndigbo here, under my tenure, has worked tirelessly to unite our people and to pick our Eze on an annual basis, from ANY Igbo state.

Let's always situate our problems, and align them to REAL solutions, than to simply talk about them.

At this point, I think it is proper that Odumchi (our in-coming Eze) should make more comments and start taking some charge of future recommendations here, afterall he has to implement them. We wouldn't want a situation whereby he is saddled with new laws that he may struggle with. We need to build this "in-situ" (to use an architectural or construction term). I make this suggestion on the basis of "uche onye adi ya njo"; lol. I could be wrong though.

ifyalways: Ank and eze Only Truth, well understood. I hope the eze and eze nwanyi elect are taking notes. It'll help them in future.

Moving on, I think we have to tackle once-and-for-all, "conditions for disqualification of candidates" . After basic profiling, what next?

My brothers and sisters, the question raised by our sister Ify is very important.
Let's not pretend that we didn't see that question. lol. So, let's apply our minds to finding a sensible and sustainable solution to the question.
Thanks in advance!

A very special thanks to Ogugua88 for an excelent job with the minutes! You overdelivered on your promise. I love that. We are definitely moving forward.
I also thank PointB and 9ja_I_hail for continuing with their jobs here. All of you are making us proud. It is not easy. What you are doing now is not "sexy", in the spotlight or flambouyant, but you are doing a very important job. When we complete this process, no one would successfully challenge our movement forward in the future.
Jisienu ike!

Negro_Ntns: Biafrans, where you all at?? Its time for you to go defend the land of Israel....time for you to carry arms in the name of zion, your ancestry, and show your warrior skills. . yeye fools

When are you going to stop being the resident Nairaland FOOL- In- Chief?
Your inferiority complex is getting the better part of you. SMH.

Eze Promoe: Only if the thread will still be alive till then. The thread is dying a slow death. Too dull.

My brother the only reason for running this long is to ensure that at least most of our people have enough knowledge regarding this process.
You know our people. Soon you will see someone coming to Nairaland to ask question like "when did we choose an Eze?"; "when did we enact any electoral laws"; believe me I've seen it happen here several times.
I understand your point though about the dullness of the whole thing now. Let's keep hope alive though. I may ask for an earlier end of the process if the dullness continues.
Thanks for your unalloyed support my brother.

Ogugua88, I saw you just a while ago on this thread. I thought you promised to collate and present everything we've done so far.
Let's see how far.

The same appeal goes to all the officials of this process. The process will run till late December but we need to keep things fresh.
Jisienu ike!

aduje: GREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED! An average Anambra Businessman's middle name.

To equate one individual to Anambra state as a whole is quite obtuse.
Borrow a brain dear.