₦airaland Forum

[quote author=Mr_Anony]My brother sorry for the delay, I know I promised for last weekend, unfortunately I am not prepared enough yet. Funny though is that the more I study the bible, the more I tend to agree with you.

I was formerly of the opinion that after death is a completely unconscious state (sleep) until resurrection to glory or judgement but right now, with the studying I have done and I am still doing, I can no longer hold on to that position. I am now quite convinced that after death is a holding place (different places for the righteous and the wicked) after which is resurrection to either glory or damnation.

I am in the process of preparing a long sermon detailed post on why I am convinced that this is so. The post however will take some time in coming I am afraid.
I really don't want to be rash and be too quick to declare something that isn't true. Please bear with me.[/quote]all this is from an infelible "God"(Anony)

Are you a presumptiouse person in real life?

Is it now that you have come to know the truth?

What have you been teaching on NL and outside all this while? False hood?
*sigh*

(programming)

Ubenedictus: I would like an explanation of how the arch angel became man.

you are creating limitation for Yahweh.

If he brought Adam from a none existing state to life, is it the miracle of transfering the life of Jesus into the womb of mary that is more complex and impossible for the creator of life?

Yahweh performed a miracle.

The first thing one needs to know is that the word "arch Angel means, leader of the Angels" with this understanding it is easy to understand that there is only one united royal angelic throng in heaven and not divide and rule. the "word= the spoke man.

chukwudi44: They believe Jesus is a mighty God and Jehovah is the almighty.

it is not about what the JW believes but rather what the bible teaches.

Exodus 6:3. Yahweh = almighty God
Isaiah 9:6 = Jesus = mighty God. QED

chukwudi44: Did the angel Michael incarnate to die for our sins?

God performed a miracle to send his son to earth to reconcile man back to God

chukwudi44: What about Micah whose name means who is like Jehovah. The names don’t give a parallel but beg a question. Who is like God? Obviously no one.

Jesus and the Archangel have the same responsibility in the bible

chukwudi44: If Jesus is Michael than who are the other angels?

the other angels were created by Jesus the first born of all creation and under his authority as the leader of the angels

chukwudi44: Doesn’t this destroy being the only begotten son

No it does not.
Since Jesus is the first born of all creation he is the only entity that Yahweh did creat personally while every other things in heaven and on earth was created by Jesus.
He Jesus is the master worker.
An only beggoten son to Yahweh.

chukwudi44: "Michael the Archangel, the first creation of Jehovah, before He came to earth and returned to the identity of Michael after his resurrection."

not just as the leader of the angels.
On going back to heaven, he was given:
1. Rulership after waiting on the right hand side of God
2. He was also appointed the JUDGE of both the living and the dead.
3. Will imprison the great dragon, the original serpent.

chukwudi44: The Watchtower teaches that Jehovah, the Father only created only one thing directly, the Logos, or Jesus. It was Jesus according to the Watchtower who created "all other things"

^^^ that is actually what the bible says.
(Colossians 1:16

"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:" (Colossians 1:16).

chukwudi44: We find the Bible contradicts the Watchtower interpretation in Isa.44:24 "I am the Lord who makes all things…""who has made the earth, and has created even man upon it...and who stretched out the heavens..."Jehovah. Is. 45:12.

there is no contradiction here.
Delegation principle is a standard practice
And the power use is Yahweh's power, his holy spirit.
So, it is all Yahweh's doing.

chukwudi44: What ever happened to in the Beginning God created the heavens and the earth?  It should read in the beginning Michael the Arch angel created the earth!

same delegation principles

chukwudi44: "Yes, we believe our Lord Jesus while on earth was really worshipped, and properly so. While he was not the God, Jehovah, he was a God."

you need to know that the word God is a title and is given to any entity that receives worshipful honor.

Even satan is also called a god

chukwudi44: Thus Jesus, a creature, is defined by the Jehovah's Witnesses as a God. the question arises, is Jesus a true God or a false God? Since we have two Gods in Jn.1:1.

since the word God is a title that any that receives a worshipful honor bears it is not an issue who is called God but who is the almighty God.

Even Yahweh did not have any problem in calling others God.

But attempt to usurp the position and place of Yahweh is the bone of contention.

chukwudi44: Rev.4:11 "you are worthy O Lord to receive glory honor and power, for you created all things and by your will they exist and were created".  Are Jehovah's Witnesses saying this is Jesus?

ofcourse, Yahweh created all things via his master worker Jesus using his holy spirit (Yahweh's power)

chukwudi44: there predicament is  to explain away their own writings."He, being the Creator, existed before any other gods, and all false gods will be wiped out so that there will be none existing after him,"

this has been explain already that the word God is a title and.

The problem is with the one challenging Yahweh and attempting to usurp his position like in how satan did with Adam.

chukwudi44: in Jer.10:11 "The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth shall perish from the earth..."   Doesn’t this make Jesus Jehovah ? Remember they have said the only true God is Jehovah! Then what are they to do with Jesus who is called creator and "a god", is he to be eliminated with all the rest.

Yahweh and jesus christ are one in purpose and they dont contest with each other.
Jesus is ever faithful while satan is not.

chukwudi44: Isaiah 43:10: "No God was formed before me, nor will be after me. I, I am Jehovah, and there is no other Savior but me." Isn’t Jesus the savior? God knows of no other Gods yet Jesus is another God.

your idea as to what God is needs upgrade.
Yahwe is almighty and Jesus is mighty.

Their is no problem in having a king and a prince in a kingdom.

jesus never consider being equal to Yahweh but rather you and your RCC are the ones trying to creat problem were
There is no problem.

Jesus is not like satan and he even teaches the hardship arrangement

Even in the congregation

chukwudi44: Isaiah 46:9: "for I am God and there is no other."No God spelled with a  big G or little g. Any man or spirit being that is called "god" cannot be the true Deity. All others called "god" are false deity.

Yahweh is almighty God and that is not under contention with Jesus.

Dont contradict Yahweh because he himself called other persons god in the bible.

chukwudi44: This is polytheism, more than one god and worse yet they have an angel exalted as "a god."  It does not matter if they worship him or not

Yahweh is the almighty God alone.

Since Jesus receives worshipful honor, that is = god,
and this honor has nothing to do with the head Yahweh.

That husband and wife are the head of the children does not mean that the man is not the overall head of the family

chukwudi44: Yet the whole church believed him to be God. in Mt.16:16 He says, "I will build MY church" not Jehovah's.

lies!
The foundation of the church is Jesus christ.

chukwudi44: Acts 20:28, Paul tells the elders,  "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of GOD, which HE PURCHASED WITH HIS OWN BLOOD." Whose church is the Jehovah Witnesses?

they are bible student that obeyed Jesus commend to make disciple of people of all nation so that people can come to the knowledge of the truth for life eternal :

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:3-4).

chukwudi44: If not Jesus then they were not purchased with his blood and are not Christians, there is only one church body, it is his.

but how can the church be RCC seeing that they dont follow christ or do they follow what the bible says, rather, they follow tradition and teaches evolution.
Can that ^^^ lead to eternal life?

chukwudi44: Are we to believe that the whole of the bible is about the Arch-angel Michael and not of God! According to the Witnesses this would have to be the conclusion. Yet Jesus said the scriptures testify of him!

by now you should have known that arch angel means the leader of the angel, and we have one person leading Yahweh's faithful angels.

You are mixing issues together in this YOUR post. Stick to a topic, one at a time so we can address them.

chukwudi44: "The Governing Body is necessary for submission to the headship of God’s son."

christ is head of the christian congregation/church.

If you do read the bible you will find that out for yourself and not the pope

.

Still pastormustwacc post cont'n :

But angels are created. How is Christ an angel?
Without considering the explanation above, this is a logical argument. Christ was with the Father from the beginning (John 1:1). He is the Creator, with the Father, not the created. Beyond these concepts, which God has revealed, we have not been told and could not understand correctly. Speculation is not only fruitless because we must guess but it is not for us to indulge in. "The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law." (Deut. 29:29). We do know the simple concepts we have just discussed and can accept them.

Christ is a human because He took on humanity to save us. This does not prevent Him from also being divine. We do not know very much about His relation to the angels, but He was one with them and he was their commander. We cannot rule out the possibility that He also took their nature as He has ours. Lucifer wanted Christ's job as he tried to work his way up to higher positions in the government of the universe (Isa. 14:13).

The word for angel in Greek and Hebrew also means messenger. So Christ, the messenger of the covenant in Mal. 3, is also the angel of the covenant. We see Him as an angel in Rev. 10:1, too, but that's beyond the scope of our study.

12:7c
Sidelight on death and the resurrection

First here is the verse we are discussing:
"Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil, he disputed about the body of Moses, durst [dared] not bring against him a railing [slanderous] accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee." (Jude 9)

Why would Michael dispute with the devil over the body of Moses? Satan doesn't want anyone resurrected. How he must have trembled when our Lord arose from the tomb! The Jewish leaders who sent Jesus to the cross were clearly inspired by Satan. Their idea of sealing the tomb (Matt. 27:64) was likewise inspired by him. He claimed victory and wanted it secure. Their excuse that the disciples, who were hiding from them, might steal the body is hardly convincing. (John 20:19).

Many who read these lines assume that the inner person escapes the body at death and goes, in spirit form, to heaven or hell. Although we find no support for this idea in Scripture 1411g, I respect those who have not understood. Seeing the faithful ones sleeping in their graves and not going to heaven before we all do helps us realize that Christ was asserting authority over His sleeping saints which Satan naturally opposes he1139. This authority would be confirmed by Christ at Calvary and by breaking the seals as the worthy Lamb 0501.

Connection with the story of Moses
Jude tells us that Michael the archangel, whom we recognized above as Christ 1207b, contended with the devil over the body of Moses. We also know that Christ was the Lord of the Exodus. He identified Himself to the Jews as the I AM that was before Abraham (John 8:58). We can see that they understood this as His claim to divinity because they were ready to stone Him. This claim would have, in their minds, justified stoning because they did not accept His divine mission. (See Matt. 26:63-65)

At the burning bush, He had told Moses, "I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you." (Ex. 3:14). This same I AM later gave them the commandments. "And God spake all these words, saying, I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." (Ex. 20:1, 2).

At the end of his term of service 1402a, Moses went to "the mountain of Nebo, to the top of Pisgah" across the Jordan Valley from Jericho. There the Lord showed him the promised land. "So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day." (Deut. 34:1-6)

Connecting this with what we learned from Jude, we see that the same Lord who buried him raised him to life again and took him to heaven. Thus we find Moses with Elijah in the transfiguration (Mark 9:1-7). Satan would keep his victims eternally in the grave if he could. Praise God for the One who is our life-giver, too. Moses' resurrection was based on the coming victory on the cross (Rev. 1:18).

A challenge to the popular theory
If Moses' spirit had gone to heaven at death and would get reconnected with his body at the resurrection, Michael would have had no special interest in his body at an earlier time. Or even if He were doing something to make sure the later connection would take place, why was Moses the one involved? The matter should have been settled with Abel or Adam.

Still supposing that a conscious part of good people goes to heaven at death, we must ask why Michael would not have been interested in Moses' "spirit." If the devil were going to block the process after death, he would have opposed the spirit's going to heaven, not what happened to the body. The simple fact is that the the popular idea is contrary to what God has told us in His Word 1411g. Death is an unconscious "sleep."

You pastormustwacc seems to make more sense than the op

pastormustwacc: Concerning whether Jesus and Angel Michael are one and the same, well, i created a thread which you might take a look at - https://www.nairaland.com/1103279/michael-archangel-really-jesus-revelation

But this Jehovah witness version is another thing entirely.

[quote author=pastormustwacc]If you are a bible believer, read this carefully and let us know your conclusions. Just thought this was an interesting article, that is all.

12:7a
War in heaven?

"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven." (Rev. 12:7,

We tend to think of heaven as a place where nothing ever goes wrong and we ask, how can a good God allow such things? People are quick to conclude that either God wasn't really good or that He can't help what happens when evil comes. The fact is that, throughout the Scriptures, we see Him as one who stands at the door and knocks (Rev. 3:20). He never pushes His way in. We let Him in only if we want to. We can choose to disobey. This means that when we choose to be loyal, it is really our free choice. God has arranged for us to have something to give. He made us and everything around us and he gives us every breath and heartbeat. In spite of total ownership, He decided to let us choose to love Him or choose not to. Our choice to give Him our loyalty is a real gift and one He treasures immensely.

God is not the author of evil de3204, ps09215. The universe and world he created came perfect from His hand, ge0131.
That choice was also given to the angels He created. We do not know how many centuries or millennia passed before rebellion broke out in heaven. They loved their leader and enjoyed their relationship of total cooperation. But one day a cloud began to roll in and heaven was not the same.



12:7b
Who is Michael?

"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven." (Rev. 12:7,

Michael is not mentioned often the Bible but, by comparing texts, we can learn his more common identity. We begin with the little book of Jude:
"Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst [dared] not bring against him a railing [slanderous, 1306a2] accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee." (Jude 9). Jude's purpose in this verse is to condemn those who teach grace as license jude04 and who criticize authority jude08. He takes the dispute with the devil as an example, revealing other information that is of particular interest to us. So Michael is also the archangel. The prefix "arch-" means to be "first" or "reigning over." This agrees with verse 7 where Michael is commander of the angels re1207. (Also 1pe0321f)
Next let's look at a verse describing the archangel. "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout [command], with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:" (1 Thess. 4:16)
So the archangel, whom we saw in Jude as also Michael, calls the dead to life. Only one person has been given that authority. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (Matt. 5:25-29)

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:" (John 11:25)
"I [Jesus] am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell [the grave] and of death." (Rev. 1:18)

In other words, only Jesus Christ will call the dead, so he is the archangel in 1st Thessalonians 4:16, 17 and He is Michael who calls Moses to life in Jude. And He is Michael who, with His angels, cast Satan out of heaven! Compare Song 5:10 which harmonizes with our seeing Him as head of the angels.

In Joshua 5:15, Christ identifies Himself as the captain of the Lord's host. He was the captain of the angels of heaven. They are the Lord's army (Rev. 19:14). Furthermore, He would not have accepted Joshua's worship if He had been an ordinary angel (see Joshua 5). Thus again He is the archangel, Michael.

But angels are created. How is Christ an angel?

chukwudi44: The fact remains anyone who claims to prophesy in the name of the Lord and it does not come to pass is a failed prophet.

this is a very simple thing, present an evidence to show that the JW contradicted/went against the words of Jesus that :
"that day and hour no one knows but the father"

this ^^^ are the words under consideration, show how/when in pdf a publication that the JW have gone over board.

Since the RCC and you are not familiar with what the bible says but follow tradition which is what you do best let me pest the words of Jesus so that you can familiarise your self and come to reality on what Jesus had said :

"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. " (Matthew 24:36).

^^^ now learn what the bible says and stop exposing your ignorance.

You and your RCC speciality is to groom atheist,

over 90% of the (former christian) atheist we have in this forum are atheist cottesy of the RCC's evil and their lies, from logicboy to calloti,

^^^ what an achievement for a religion that is suppose to direct people to God!

Have you forgotten that you and your RCC have left teaching the bible and are now the expert in teaching evolutionary theory and philosophy of men?
What a shame!

You and your RCC came up with the shameless lies that RCC wrote and gave us the NT that you dont know what it contain neither do you follow it,

meanwhile this are writtings of the apostles of christ with a little history by mark a luke, what a hypocit you and your mother are?

The JW via the bible calculation arrived at 1914 as the date that christ rule began in heaven and hence satan was cast down to the earth, as the bible said :

"woe to the earth for satan has came down to you with great anger knowing he has a short period of time" (Rev. 12:12)

(marked by the first world war)meet JW and they will show you the calculation.

meaning that the next thing is that satan will be removed from the earth, but you ignorantly copy info from JW detractors that are based on distortion and lies and start screaming what you dont know like a kid.

For your life sake, start reading the bible and know what it contain and STOP basking on the illusion of the RCC.
Peace

salt 1: As I had said, I don't know what others are preaching, but I do know what I practice. There is a tithes/offering box placed at the entrance of all Apostolic Faith churches and I go there to drop whatever tithes/offerings I have to support the ministry. Everybody is working for the Lord and He is the Judge of all our actions and intentions

but i thought tithing is not for christians?

Why are they collecting tith?

italo: You wonder at the manner of reasoning.

That a fallible Church can write and compile an infallible book.

If the Bible is infallible, so is the Church that wrote the new testament and compiled the Bible.

still the same lies that you people use in turning people theist.



the NT is a writing by christ apostles .

The apostles wrote letters and taught the christians what and how to follow in their service to God/faith and this books had there names, and the early 1century congregation knew the writers that sent them the books
.

See some sample of the apostles letters by their own mouth in the bible

peter:
1.

"And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;" (2 Peter 3:15).

"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness." (2 Peter 3:16-17).
(note: his epistle)

Paul:
2. "The salutation of Paul with mine own hand, which is the token in every epistle: so I write." (2 Thessalonians 3:17).

(note: every epistle)

3. "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle." (2 Thessalonians 2:15).
(note: our epistle)

4. "And Tychicus have I sent to Ephesus. The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments." (2 Timothy 4:12-13).

5. "Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the power which the Lord hath given me to edification, and not to destruction." (2 Corinthians 13:10).

6. "I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:" (1 Corinthians 5:9).
(note: his epistle)

7. "But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat." (1 Corinthians 5:11).
(note: I have written unto you)

8. "Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not." (Galatians 1:20).
( I write unto you,)

9. "How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)" (Ephesians 3:3-4).

(note: as I wrote afore in few words,)

Congregations to exchange letters :

10. "And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea." (Colossians 4:16).

This are just few letters from the apostles not to talk of revelation and others that they the apostles wrote.

Stop exposing your limited bible knowledge.

Kamxin: Protestants claim that the bible is infallible. Then the church that wrote it & compiled it is falliable. What a paradox. Without the catholic church explainig 2 me how a man called himself God I wud hv change religion.

wrote which bible?

You talk worst than a thief:


the NT is a writing by christ apostles .

The apostles wrote letters and taught the christians what and how to follow in their service to God/faith and this books had there names, and the early 1century congregation knew the writers that sent them the books
.

See some sample of the apostles letters by their own mouth in the bible

peter:
1.

"And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;" (2 Peter 3:15).

"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness." (2 Peter 3:16-17).
(note: his epistle)

Paul:
2. "The salutation of Paul with mine own hand, which is the token in every epistle: so I write." (2 Thessalonians 3:17).

(note: every epistle)

3. "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle." (2 Thessalonians 2:15).
(note: our epistle)

4. "And Tychicus have I sent to Ephesus. The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments." (2 Timothy 4:12-13).

5. "Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the power which the Lord hath given me to edification, and not to destruction." (2 Corinthians 13:10).

6. "I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:" (1 Corinthians 5:9).
(note: his epistle)

7. "But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat." (1 Corinthians 5:11).
(note: I have written unto you)

8. "Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not." (Galatians 1:20).
( I write unto you,)

9. "How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)" (Ephesians 3:3-4).

(note: as I wrote afore in few words,)

Congregations to exchange letters :

10. "And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea." (Colossians 4:16).

This are just few letters from the apostles not to talk of revelation and others that they the apostles wrote.

This is the descripton of the Judgment day and it events:


"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4).


"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." (Revelation 20:12).

"With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD." (Isaiah 26:9-10).

"There shall be no more (dying as an infant) thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall die as a mere boy (Isaiah 65:20).

(After the judgment day those that refuse to follow what is written on the scrolls will die)

Reyginus: Thank you. Do we cease to exist as spirits after the passage of the judgement or do we live for eternity thereafter?

"With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD." (Isaiah 26:9-10).

"There shall be no more (dying as an infant) thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall die as a mere boy (Isaiah 65:20).

It is wrong to take the twelve tribe recorded in Rev. 7 as th e natural 12 tribe of Israel cus the listing of the tribes includes names that were not part of the natural 12tribes that made up the natural Israel.

There was no tribe called the tribe of "Levi"

"Of the tribe of "Levi" were sealed twelve thousand. " (Revelation 7:7).

So, natural Israel is off the mark unless you are saying that God made a mistake.

Richvkunt: So how do we know the real church? Why is there a proliferation of churches and religious houses yet the land is so dirty and corrupt?
Honest answers please.

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (2 Thessalonians 2:10-12).

^^^ Love of the truth is the key.

What is truth?

"Sanctify them through thy "truth" : thy word is truth. " (John 17:17).
(thy word is recorded in the bible)

your love of the truth means you have to take in the knowledge of God.

"this means ETERNAL life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God and of Jesus christ whom whom thou has sent"
(John 17:3).

(everlasting life = take in knowledge)

take a bible study and keep on asking a lot of questions.

plappville: It could be clearer but that takes much of time, because more scriptures are linked.
I spend very few time with my pc, a full time mother. U know what i mean
But i enjoy following up, drop one or two contributions if be it.

you are doing quite well.

mazaje: Unknown men wrote the gospels, men's whose name are NOT the names that appear on the gospels today, so do you know for sure the the original authors were not writing their own fictitious tales?. . .I know you will lay claim to this elusive faith cake but then, as you please Mr Frosbel. . .As you please. . .

^^^
you had limited knowledge and that means poor foundation which is why you fall.

the NT is a writing by christ apostles .

The apostles wrote letters and taught the christians what and how to follow in their service to God/faith and this books had there names, and the early 1century congregation knew the writers that sent them the books
.

See some sample of the apostles letters by their own mouth in the bible

peter:
1.

"And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;" (2 Peter 3:15).

"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness." (2 Peter 3:16-17).
(note: his epistle)

Paul:
2. "The salutation of Paul with mine own hand, which is the token in every epistle: so I write." (2 Thessalonians 3:17).

(note: every epistle)

3. "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle." (2 Thessalonians 2:15).
(note: our epistle)

4. "And Tychicus have I sent to Ephesus. The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments." (2 Timothy 4:12-13).

5. "Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the power which the Lord hath given me to edification, and not to destruction." (2 Corinthians 13:10).

6. "I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:" (1 Corinthians 5:9).
(note: his epistle)

7. "But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat." (1 Corinthians 5:11).
(note: I have written unto you)

8. "Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not." (Galatians 1:20).
( I write unto you,)

9. "How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)" (Ephesians 3:3-4).

(note: as I wrote afore in few words,)

Congregations to exchange letters :

1. "And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea." (Colossians 4:16).

This are just few letters from the apostles not to talk of revelation and others that they the apostles wrote.

Stop exposing your limited bible knowledge.

salt 1: Tithing is in the Bible and should be joyfully paid by the true child of God.
As for Kumuyi being rigid with it? This thread is about Apostolic Faith and not DLCF. You can raise the question on their own thread.

but this apostolic faith also ask/collect tith or dont they?

Richvkunt: Was walking down a small street in Lagos recently and was able to count more than 100 churches of different denominations.
My question is why so many factions in the kingdom of God? If we are following one Holy Bible and it is infalliable why different factions with different teachings of the same message and despite the proliferation of religious houses why is there so much wickedness and corruption in the land?

take a look at this scriptures below and see:

"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works." (2 Corinthians 11:13-15).

What do you expect from ^^^ such then?

nuclearboy: @BigBashiru:

The Bible speaks of pre-destination! But look at the larger picture and consider language differences and speech inflections!

Look at this statement - I get up every morning! This implies I will "stand" up every morning! YET that is wrong because what it really means is to "wake up"!

You are assuming (and I have fallen into the exact same trap and questioned the same as you) that God wants some to go to hell when what He is saying is that the door to both heaven and hell are open but the choice is yours just as you could wake and decide not to stand up!

Here's a parallel - using my example, you'll find that usually, people who are "fine" (good health = righteous\forgiven) will wake and stand up (go to heaven) whist the sick (sinful etc) will wake (death) but not stand up (continue to the right destination)!

The choice is not waking but what you do after but that usually is based on what you did prior to even that sleep!

the point is that the guy is very forward and conclusive and at the same time very stubborn.

Most of the scriptures he has quoted is a reference to an expressed intent to do something to a set of people without specifying the individuals in the group.

For instance, a committee of 20 people was predetermined upon to carry out an assignment without chosing the individual that will make up the commitee God went ahead to specify the task this "20" people will do.

That it was Pre-determined that "20" people will be involved to do something how does the task specified affect the yet to be picked individuals?

That another yet to be pick "group" have been predetermined to benefit from the assignment of the 20 people how does that equate to predetermining the individuals that will benefit from the assignment of the 20?

This are statements referencing God's purposes for the future as he works toward it via the messaiah that had come and has other things to do in the future.

There are lots of errors of interpretation all over the place that should make one to be very careful.

Ubenedictus: since u dont think there is anything past in rev, is d battle pursued satan from heaven a future event? Just yes or no,

the reference point of the future is two thousand years from when John wrote it at least that was after christ birth, death and ascension to heaven.

Ubenedictus: what is the "new jerusalem"? I thought it was d kingdom of God under christ as paul attest. Pls did i get it wrong?

rev 21:1 to 4

plappville: He is not confused at all, you have gat to take your time and Read carefully.
Isaiah 66:7-11: 7“Before she goes into labor,she gives birth;
before the pains come upon her,
she delivers a son.
8Who has ever heard of such a thing?
Who has ever seen such things?
Can a country be born in a day
or a nation be brought forth in a moment?
Yet no sooner is Zion in labor
than she gives birth to her children.
9Do I bring to the moment of birth
and not give delivery?” says the Lord.
“Do I close up the womb
when I bring to delivery?” says your God.
10“Rejoice with Jerusalem and be glad for her,
all you who love her;
rejoice greatly with her,
all you who mourn over her.
11For you will nurse and be satisfied
at her comforting breasts;
you will drink deeply
and delight in her overflowing abundance.”."

Here, Isaiah prophesied ages before Christ, of a woman bringing forth a 'man child.' "She," verse ten tells us, is Jerusalem,
Isaiah should be referring to the New Jerusalem.

Revelation 12:5 said the woman brought forth a 'man child;' Isaiah 66:7 said Jerusalem was delivered of a 'man child.'
Now Isaiah 66:8 expresses astonishment: "Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things?"
Just like you believed @i.chuka was confused. Think about it, What was so amazing that Isaiah would be so surprised? Isaiah saw a whole nation, born in one day. That is something outstanding no? I believe this Revelation is deeper than we see it.

why not spill it out?

Snowwy: @Jem1,
We still await your response on Luke 18:12. The pharisee gave tithes of all he possessed (these were those who knew the law to the letter).

You claimed the Pharisees only tithed per Leviticus so why the difference?

All the tithe in Israel were for the ministers. Tithe of all, tithe of all things, Abraham gave tithe of all, no issues. However it is understood is left to the reader.

God said a tithe from the land and of herds are holy to Him yes and also said He gave ALL the tithe in ISRAEL to the Levites...I do not see that as just herd and crops else why the seperation in 2 Chron 31.

2 Chron 31 talked about tithe of ALL THINGS as well. It
Whatever you term that to mean is left to you.

The pharisee gave tithe of all he possessed...so may be you can link that as well.

In all, the tithe is not relegated to just farm produce, we have enough examples to read from OT and NT.
I Corinthians 9 is also another proof of this.
All is to be done in faith and with thanks cheerfully.
Other givings are also very important.

Therefore all these back and forth is just suspect for people who claimm to be givers.

^^^
now it is very clear why on Joagbaje thread(about the law coming to an end) you were saying that the law has not come to an end.

All this tith fraud stars they will say any thing to fleas the sheeple.

Pastor Kun: Does this mean stealing of bibles is a common occurrence in winner's chapel?

there members cannot change so they make laws to meet the rising trend.

advocate666: I really don't understand what you are driving at here.
The problem with you people is that you have been brain-tuned into thinking that Satan = Bad. Thus whatever he does must necessarilly be bad.
Put this thinking by the side and look at the actions of the devil.
You brought up what you guys erronously refer to as the temptation of jesus but which was really a classic example of the selflessness of the devil.
Here, Satan saw a starving man that hadn't eaten anything for 40 days for whatever reason. This man is sorrounded by food and even have the power to transform things to food. Satan took pity and asked the man to use his powers to feed himself. The man refused.
To any unbrainwashed normal person, was Satan did was praiseworthy and worthy of emulation, but for some reasons you christians turn this wonderful act into something to be abhored.

Leave the lies. Forget the brainwashing. Come to Lucifer, the Morning Light of the World. Gain knowledge and understanding. Live a fulfilling life. Satan loves you more than god hates you.

hahaha, enjoy. am done here ^^^

plaetton: Prophecy, at most, is an educated guess.
Economic forcasters, for example, are modern day prophets, same for polical forcastors.
One did not need to be called a prophet, to have forcasted, 25yrs ago, that Nigeria Nigeria was going to have very deep and dire economic, political and social upheavals.

Infact, I voluteer to prophesy that in the decades to come, cannibalism will become common again and that Nigeria would be like the Somalia of 10yrs ago.

^^^ this was some what hasty i think.

[quote author=Area_boy]good write up dude.. and reflects the reality of religion today compared to what its founders intended. (if Jesus had stayed dead, he'll be somersaulting in his grave )

Its a shame that religious institutions get so big that they loose the basic plot and start worshipping money. Jesus never had a mega church... why preachers today believe they need the biggest churches to make an impact is beyond me. the only logical conclusion to a mega church (be it catholic or evangelical or what have you) is profit. Profit profit and more profit.[/quote]^^^

90/100

mkmyers45: Keep evading...I put it to you that God in material form is Pure Primordial Energy manifest in all things...Now Logically God must be eternal and all-powerful so also the manifest. I put it to you that you can never dispute the fact that is material evidence as only the infinite eternity of energy would have brought about the universe and the fact that there is no space devoid of energy..

does this God have a mind/intelligence of its own?

BERNIMOORE: why are people dismissing Gods day as a mere threat?

people have been blinded by the ruler of this world

Now for the seventh post (7) on bible prophesy:


This was my initial question to you

truthislight: are you saying that there are no prophesies that has ever come true even in the bible inclusive?

and this is your answer i supposed.

Logicboy03: Yes.

Prophesies that will fulfil on the messaiah:

4.
"For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." (Psalm 16:10).

Concerning his resurrection befor corruption :

"Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it." (Acts 2:24).

"Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." (Acts 2:27).



*to be continued*

Now for the six post (6) on bible prophesy:


This was my initial question to you

truthislight: are you saying that there are no prophesies that has ever come true even in the bible inclusive?

and this is your answer i supposed.

Logicboy03: Yes.

Prophesies that will fulfil on the messaiah:


3.

"Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an as.s", (Zechariah 9:9).

Entered Jerusalem with "ass"

"And brought the as.s, and the colt, and put on them their clothes, and they set him thereon." (Matthew 21:7).

*to be continued*

Now for the fifth post (5) on bible prophesy:


This was my initial question to you

truthislight: are you saying that there are no prophesies that has ever come true even in the bible inclusive?

and this is your answer i supposed.

Logicboy03: Yes.

am looking for very simple once so far cus if i go deep, men!

Prophesies that will fulfil on the messaiah:

1.
"The sceptre(rulership) shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh(messaiah) come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be." (Genesis 49:10).
^^^
Messaiah will come from the tribe of Judah:

(Luke 3:23 to 33)
"And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli," (Luke 3:23).

"Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda," (Luke 3:33).

2.

"And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth." (Isaiah 53:9).

Buried with the rich:

"When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus’ disciple: He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered. And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth," (Matthew 27:57-59).

"And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed." (Matthew 27:60).

*to be continued*