₦airaland Forum

faithin9ja:
I have not put mouth on this matter, now I am talking ( I am sure some people will find reasons to insult me)

forget all the long winded analysis, market forces are more powerful than any cabal, anti-corruption measures or even border controls.

It is totally irrational (especially in a country like Nigeria all though it would even happen in the most honest societies) to expect any importer to import any product and be paid by the government for anything he or she imports, ie I import cement at $30 a bag, government say I must sell at $10 a bag and they will give me back my $20 difference (plus some profit for my effort) - how many bags will I import? the officials who count the bags, how many bags will they record? the government officials who make the payments to me what do I give them to ensure I get paid? of course all the figures will be inflated, it's free money

Sorry but the whole idea of subsidy is a fallacy.

You think the government is silly? removal in fell swoop rather than phased removal - they won't do that because each increase will bring it's own protest, rather than have three separate protests, government wants to deal with one period of protest.

Removal over the new year holiday, of course when most of the nation is on holiday, many people still in the village, as such organised or spontaneous protests is difficult

NLC, etc - these have all been settled even before the removal was announced, they will organize a few days of strikes and then all will go back to normal.

Luxury buses, Trailers, 911 lorries, molue, BRT, factory generators - all these use diesel (N160 per litre- deregulated for almost 10 years), when last did i hear somebody smuggled diesel to republic of Benin or Cameroun?

Sorry guys, the subsidy removal is tough but necessary, I like many people will suffer from it, my gen gas gone from N1000 a day to N2000 a day

A government that wants to spend 1billion on food for two people, 200 million watering gardens,11 billion for foreign travels Dude this is more than subsidy removal, its injustice.
What has the president, ministers and senators sacrified?? They run one of the most expensive governments in the world yet GEJ is not ready to do anything about that.
In theory, subsidy removal is a good thing but in Nigeria, please, you talk of market forces but you forget that almost everything in Nigeria does not work with market forces e.g Barbers have a union that sets the price, same with bricklayers and even public transportation. To believe in market forces in Nigeria is like believing in father xmas

*** the people of Cameroun are "feeling" the heat according to you

Beaf and all  pro subsidy removal people, now that subsidy has been removed and the people of Cameroun are "feeling the heat"
If mr X builds a refinery in Nigeria and pump price after refining is lets say N80 what stops mr X from going to still sell it in Benin republic and Cameroun

tithe:
@Poster, you are looking for a man you will use remote control on abi,

If you want such i will advice u go to akwa ibom or calabar there u will see a submitted submissive man.

You missed out bayelsa, thats where el retardo comes from,

In theory subsidy removal is not a bad thing. The problem is the so called president wants to spend 1billion on food for two families.
@op
What sacrifice has the goverment made or is it only the masses that should suffer??

rolchi:
@bolded
Hmmmmm, Okay o! Very soon, Nigerians will flood Ghana to build refineries and employ Ghanaians and we will begin to say again "Go to Ghana, how many refineries do they have?" "Why can't our government do like Ghana?"

This is the time to do like Ghana, Remove the Fuel Subsidy to stimulate the downstream sector so that jobs can be created!


God bless the Federal Republic of Nigeria
God bless President Goodluck Ebelemi Jonathan
God bless Nairalanders

You are missing the point. Removal of subsidies does not stop CORRUPTION. The dangotes and co will still dominate i.e after deregulation, only "pdp them people" will have access to the market

rolchi:
Gbam, lets' remove this subsidy and move forward! The question I ask people like Gbawe and all anti-fuel subsidy removal apostles is this:

Are we creating jobs in the downstream sector of the oil and gas under the current arrangement? If your answer is that the government should build more refineries, I will ask again: Mention one government owned company that is currently working to full installed capacity and are currently recruiting or have recruited in the past two years?

Every year, you hear of Total Recruiting via their website, NLNG, Mobil, etc! The one interview Nigerrians and Nairalanders wrote for NNPC was conducted at night and heaven knows how many people were eventually employed and they have to wait for another 2 years for recruitment, but people retire from NNPC every year.

The fuel subsidy is not about price for fuel but creation of jobs; opening of the sector so that we can get jobs. I need to be a big man in the new refinery coming out when the subsidy is removed

Support the Fuel Subsidy Removal, Support GEJ, Support efisher, Support Beaf!


God bless the Federal Republic of Nigeria
God bless President Goodluck Ebelemi Jonathan
God bless Nairalanders

The Bolded above is a big fallacy,
From a business man point of view, its cheaper to import fuel than build a refinery!!
If you build a refinery esp in Nigeria, you will have to generate your own power, maintain the refinery, buy the crude at international price, pay your staffs(cost of doing business in Nigeria is one of the highest in the world).
If you import, less staff to pay, less capital needed and you still make your profit.

rolchi,
nobody is against subsidy per se, the opponents of subsidy removal are just saying removing subsidy does not solve the problems which got us here in the first place!

Beaf:
@topic
I wonder when Nigerians will finally realise that they have been sold cheaply into slavery for N65.00 per litre petrol? I feel really pained when folk make passionate arguments to remain in economic chains, it really makes one wonder.
What sort of country subsidises consumption? All developed oil producers DO NOT subsidise fuel for consumption, its only the backward developed countries that do so; instead, they see subsidies as investments to be poured into productive areas like research, education, agriculture, health, manufacturing etc. But not Nigeria, cos everything we do is upside down.

Mr Beaf
All developed oil nations do not have sme's generating their own power
All developed oil nations do not have an over bloated government
All developed oil nations do not have their citizens producing their own water and electricity

My two cents
I did not watch the chat cos i know watching paint dry is more fun than listening to GEJ

1)@Leomax, i think the constitution allows freedom of speech so everyone is free to call GEJ what he likes

2)For Beaf  and his pro GEJ/subsidy removal people
Its a known fact that tooth pick and some other ridiculos things that are not subsidized are imported into the country and you guys say subsidy removal will gurantee the building of refineries in Nigeria, how come tooth pick and the ridiculous are not produced in Nigeria(or are still imported)
A.G.O has not been subsidized since the OBJ era yet the price has not come down, using that as case study why do you think if subsidy is removed, it will benefit the masses??
Thanks

kuramo:
This is an important endorsement of Nigeria's economic reforms led by Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala.

Moreover, it helps with international investor confidence in Nigeria which will help drive the much needed FDI.

Dude did the imf endorse china's economic model??
Her endorsement should be seen as tragic

GEJ is looking for funding for 2015 elections. Same Government that cannot handle payment of subsides wants to handle so many projects? i laugh in pidgin.

It seems GEJ wants to give the cabal(Dangote, Otedola and co) the petroleum market unhindered while the savings from subsidy would be used to settle awon boys.
By the way, if this is what they want to use savings from subsidy for, then what are the capital projects in the budget??

Reference:
Egbin power station is not FG Wilson generator. It is a power plant. Those that manufactured, installed and commissioned it should be running it. Call them and broker a deal. Supply us electricity and we will pay you at a price we mutually agree to. Simple. How many of the staff complaining were there thirty or forty years ago when the plant was commissioned. Government has no business buying generators, generating electricity or selling metres. This problem will recur until those whose business it is to design, fabricate and operate these plants are in charge, period.

Egbin was built by Hitachi of Japan and they asked for right of first refusal if the FG ever wanted to sell, but during OBJ time he sold it to a korean firm and Hitachi were pissed of and they are no longer coming back,
When they are issues like this, they are usually called to fix it but now who knows

Beaf you keep talking GEJ trying to destroy the cabal like we no go school,
Answer this
Fuel landing cost + profit = N120
Masses pay  = N65
Subsidy      = N65
Total to Marketer = N120

Now without subsidy

Fuel landing cost + profit = N120
Masses pay  = N120
Subsidy       = N0
Total to Marketer = N120

Both ways the marketer gets his money, so how did GEJ destroy the cabal Please explain with figures

Wallie:
The idea sounds great on paper in a country where public officials are held accountable.

The way I see it, the only thing guaranteed is that the citizenry will see inflation and their purchasing power will be reduced. GEJ’s plan, as laid out by BEAF, is for the government to take money/benefits that accrue directly to the citizenry and hand it over to the government with hope that they do the right thing?

What are the Federal, State, and Local governments currently doing with their allocation? What makes anyone think that they will suddenly have a change of heart and channel the funds to the much needed infrastructure?

What happened to the funds (about $35Billion) GEJ released to the States before the primaries?

I’m all for fuel subsidy removal but only if the citizenry will see the benefits. GEJ needs to fire his advisors and hire new ones because he’s in need of sound ideas and he appears not to be getting any!

That is what we have been asking beaf to explain to us since ooh

The government also in the document addressed the concern of some of us on the likely impact of removal of subsidy on the vulnerable segment of our society with well articulated and well targeted safety net programmes, public works and employment schemes, maternal and child health, mass transit programmes and vocational training and skill acquisition schemes.

if these are the so called pallative measures they i wonder why i pay tax or rather what my tax is used for?

Beaf:
Dude, first of all, thanks for that illuminating post.
The removal of the subsidy is not just about the govt ceasing to pay importers. It is about complete overhauling and deregulation, so nobody is expected to be able to export crude, only to reimport it, smuggle it Cotonou and get 100% paid for the evil effort by the FG. The whole system is changing and the bloodsuckers are getting swept away. I imagine that new rules would mean each importer having to reapply. . . You know the drill!

Does Nigeria need a complete overhaul YES.
But removal of subsidy is the easy way out of a problem which will affect the masses adversly, GEJ is removing subsidy, increasing the import duty on rice which is the staple food of the average Nigerian in one blow. Think of the effect it will have on the masses and dont get me started on pallative measures because we all know the money would be shared among the three tiers of Government

Beaf:
Your argument leaves out the most important variable which is; exactly how much fuel does Nigeria consume?
That little question hides a lot of ugliness.

I can bet you that the figures bandied about as our total fuel consumption are all FALSE. They have been beefed up and padded to allow for extraordinary levels of smuggling, all subsidised by the Nigerian government. Therefore, the figures given as Nigeria's fuel consumption are really for vast proportions of the combined figure for Niger, Chad, Benin Republic, Burkina Faso, Cameroon and Nigeria.

If our fuel consumption is only a fraction of the figure bandied around, it follows that our refineries are in much better shape (aside Kaduna) to fulfill a great percentage of local demand. In that sense, the benefits will be felt quite quickly and there is no point waiting for them to run at a 100% before smoking out a den of vipers.

Its posts like this that make people call you GEJ spokesperson, Scrapping NNPC and removing fuel subsidy does not stop corruption, The money saved from fuel subsidy would still be handled by this so called people or are the people going to manage the saving from subsidy fall from heaven??

I agree with you that the figures bandied around are FALSE, but GEJ should first be concerned about getting the right figure with an error margin of about 5%,

[quote author=alj_harem link=topic=824709.msg9762711#msg9762711 date=1323864287]Haba beaf you don start again.

removal of subsidy would not change the fact that our country does not have refinaries and thus have to go to those countires to refine our crude oil, or does it ?

Haba beaf don't turn logic on it's head[/quote]No mind the guy

Beaf:
Damn right.

Well according to your logic NNPC should be scrapped because its corrupt why shouldn't that apply to other corrupt agencies

Gbawe
Power solves our problems halfway but i think the way the government is going about it wrong, The country is so far behind we need to tripple our efforts to catch up.
I believe we should concentrate on getting power to the villages and remote areas. The country currently generates about 4000mw and IPP power stations yet to come on board. My thinking is this IPP's should not be connected to the national grid but should be distributed to factories in remote villages like,
Papalanto is one ipp in ogun state and when it is ready, i think it should just generate power for the cement factories in ogun state which should in directly lower the cost of cement which in turn should jerk up construction in the country,
I know its not as simple as i make it out to be but the government should be ingenious

Beaf:
^
Firing will simply not work, the thing is like an octupus with deep tentacles into the very soul of Nigeria. The whole NNPC should be scrapped along with the fuel subsidy, we should all fight to remove govts hands from any sort of business or money generation, except where our national security would be threatened.

If we enthrone true federalism and back the PIB, we wouldn't have institutions like the NNPC.

The Nigerian Police is corrupt lets scrap the police
The Nigerian Military is corrupt lets scrap it too,
Political parties are corrupt lets scrap them too,

Question to BEAF, is the NNPC corrupt or the people that work for NNPC??

thehomer:
How long will it take these jokers to realize that security is highly dependent on a higher standard of living (water, power, food security), education, science and technology and not just throwing hungry policemen and soldiers at problem regions? Then the attempt to drastically shock the economy by suddenly removing the subsidy on petrol is simply unwise. One would have thought that a more reasoned gradual process tied to the availability of fully functioning refineries would be a better approach.

Good post there, That is what GEJ and his P.A Beaf do not understand,
It's a shame we have leaders who do not think,

This one singular act of removing subsidies will lead to
1) Increase in the price of pms, which will lead to,
2)Increase in the cost of living/doing business in nigeria, which will lead to,
3)Lower standard of living/ People losing their jobs, Which will lead to,
4) Increase in crime, corruption and all other socail evils

JamesDoe:
Subsidy mathematics according to the govt (as I've understood it):
Assume the market price of PMS is N100;

Consumers pay N40 at the pump;
Tax payers via the Govt pay N60 ("subsidy"
Total to marketers: N100

Without "subsidy"
Consumers pay N100
Total to marketers:N100

In theory this should mean the govt has N60 to play with - Yes? No!

Why no? This isn't the first time "subsidy" is being removed but we never get an explanation of what this subsidy has been spent on. Can someone close to the govt account for the savings?

If the "subsidy" is removed then explain with specific projects what the historical savings have been spent on?

The bolded above is why you will know GEJ and Beaf aint serious, They blame a phantom cabal for their inefficiencies!!!!
Subsidy removal affects the masses not the so called cabal

Beaf:
Aside from the bolded, everything above is mere conjecture.

Now to the bolded, the firm answer is, yes. In fact, it is high time Nigerian states and LG's learnt to live without free money; if they were all generating wealth and employment for their people, who would be so bothered about the removal of the oil subsidy?

What we should be concerened about is how to enthrone true federalism and get every unit of govt functioning. That is what obtains in the developed World, no unit of govt goes cap in hand on a monthly basis to central govt.
As an example, the pic below is of a 35MW power station in the UK, owned by 3 London LG's; Lewisham, Southwark, and Greenwich :

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9f/SELCHP.jpg/800px-SELCHP.jpg
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SELCHP

What sort of laziness plagues Nigeria that we cannot cry out for such local development from our states and LG's, instead of scrounging for subsidies and survival handouts from Abuja?

If GEJ really meant well, he would not be pushing for subsidy removal but resource control!!!! By the way, do you know that the money saved from subsidy would be shared among the three tier's of Government??

islamrules:
But Boko-aram does not represent the wills and interest of the hausas. It is these do or die politicians who are sponsoring boko-haram.

The issue is complex than OPC. Although, Fulani/Hausas are now killing non-hausa all over the country. Middle belt (Benue Fulani attack yesterday).

They want to instill fear in other ethnic groups, so that they can continue their dictatorship they have being enjoying since Babangida, Abacha time. But other ethnic group needs to give them a deterrent blow.

Call it "genocide" or any name , any available Fulani village and their cattles in the south should be cleaned. They will learn from it.

But if you people sit down and cry fish everyday. They will be happy to do more. Their objective is to make u fear them, and they are meeting it.

Geez, and some paid your school fees

dmainboss:
Some of you forget some basic facts. The government does not have to guarantee this or that. There are many business men and companies willing to come in and do business and create competition. All they need is liberalisation and policies to guide it. Just open the doors and you will see over one hundred companies ready to open refineries and fight for a share of the business. The end result is simple. Prices willl go down and the product will be available everywhere. Those who keep saying fuel will sell at 150k only show they know nothing about business. Competition will always drive prices down. Its the simple law of supply and demand. The phone industry is a very clear example

I believe you dont live in Nigeria cos if you do you will no that cement is not subsidized and yet there is no competition, same goes for sugar, flour e.t.c,
i'm willing to bet that if subsidy is removed, NNPC will be only ones importing fuel via dangote, otedola and co??

Good Article,
The problem is not subsidy, its corruption, We can remove all the subsidy we want but that corruption will still affect the so called infrastural development.
OBJ spend $16 billion on power yet no one has asked him to give a break down of how the money was spent,
Until government officials account for every 1 naira spent, Nigeria will not change
My 2 cents kobo

I'm in,
Just a floor member

By the way i'd prefer something similar to the obuh's an in i'd rather we help someone totally than 10 people half way

ceejayluv:
The govt ought not to have any business subsidizing fuel if we had steady power supply and efficient transport system. For nigeria to move forward, we have to make some harsh decisions. When we achieve uninterrupted power (50000 MW), Become net exporters of crude products, have state-of-the-art transport facilities, make proper use of our wastin arable land, invest heavily in Research and jail those Bureaucratic scoundrels in Power, Thence, we will hav economic breakthrough in d next 30 years!
There's no short cut! DEREGULATE! as it was done in the telecoms sector. We're 167 million. Geez! We squandered our opportunities in the 70's and 80's, We just gotta bear d inconvenience for a while, Sorry.

Its funny how Nigerians reason?? Question to you, does the call rate affect the price of food in the market??

abbyode:
I fully support the subsidy removal. From those empirical data, it is surely unsustainable. Moreso, few minority are being enriched with it. It will be hard initially, but there is surely a light at the end of the tunnel.

Few are not being enriched, Subsidy or no subsidy those markets will still make their money, GEJ is trying to cover up his failure, If our refineries were working will Nigeria be taking about importing fuel??

The level of ignorance among Nigerians is alarming, GEJ and his prime minister are trying to cover up for their incompetence by saying the cabal are the one benefitting from subsidy.

Mr X imports garri to Nigeria for N100(including his profit) and government says he should sell the garri for N50 while the government pays him his balance of N50
how does that translate to Mr X fleecing the country? Mr X sees a business oportunity from the failings of the government and acts on it.

GEJ and his cohorts tell us the "cabal"are the one sabotaging the refineries but they never tell us how,
The Government are the ones who award contract for repairing/building of Refineries/Power stations and not the so called cabal,
If the government pays for a job not done how is that the cabals fault?

The governments lack of transparency is the real enemy of nigeria,
when i go to the market to buy yam, if i dont like what the sellers brings, i dont pay so also if GEJ awards a contract and the contractor does a shady job he should not pay!!!

nsiadi:
I salute the doggedness of Beaf
He can be trusted
He fires straight
He just states the facts , the way facts are
His stance doesnt suggest he defends anybody
But dudes with warped argument cast aspersions on him
If u say something is sweet & u cant say exactly why u say so better be quiet

Somebody said he discovered some few people are milking us blue,
, & initiated actions to stop the mess. Yet people are saying he is benefiting from the mess!
What a bundle of contradiction
Under a normal circumstance removal of subsidy, in a field as strategic as petroleum can result in vortex of bad after effects, to the extent that expected gains could be wiped out by hardship resulting from hyper inflation, retrenchment, discontentment. If we allow such to be inflicted on us how are we coming out clean?
People have left the kernel & are pursuing shadow, & Beaf is dealing with them properly. Ride on Bro

People have discovered that they are fake doctors/hospitals in Nigeria, should we close all the hospitals??

If we cannot be told how they are milking us blue, there is no case

Beaf:
You are very confused.

The bolded is the only thing worth replying to, and only because you specifically called my attention.
Its a bit silly to ask about the proportion of the federation account that goes to the FG. The question you should be asking yourself, is why your state (and all others) produce fuckall and have to go with a begging bowl to Abuja every month. Perhaps you think that is dignified.
In the US (which you used as an example to butress a slab of unfortunate logic), the states actually keep the FG afloat by contributing taxes from revenue they have generated from services and industry; not the other way as in our comparatively unproductive system. Why does your state beg for a living instead of doing the same? If there was no oil and awuf Abuja money, what would your state have done? Would all of you be on the streets begging?

Get your governor working and your state functioning; generating jobs, wealth, healthcare, education, high tech industries. Or do you think the FG should step in to teach your governor how to do these things? If so, why did you vote? Sir, you are very confused.
The FG should be seen as the overall authority and protector, not as a father Christmas.

Like I pointed out earlier, the vast majority of you just let words off because you have mouths. But every one of us also has intellectual abilities, so why don't we use them?
From that one bolded sentence, it is quite clear that you fall into the camp of those who would have the already grounded Nigerian ship to continue steering in the same old phucked direction and wishing that our luck will somehow change. Luck has nothing to do with national development.
The only way forward for Nigeria, is to disengage the FG from money generating ventures and establish practices that lead to true federalism. If I were you, I would learn what that entails in every detail. Learn what your rights should be as against what the limits of the various tiers of govt should be; meditate deeply and philosophise on these things before coming out to make demands, lest you come across as very confused and phucking clueless.

Thank you.

Not all states beg for a livingand i would be glad if GEJ and leave the oil in my state alone!!!!!