₦airaland Forum

Logicboy03: Are you an accountant for the catholic church? Do you even know what they do with half of the funds they raise with their business ventures? Abeg.

u just want to show u dishonesty and bias. The way money reaches rome is thru peters pence and d council of american bishops, niaja doesnt contribute anything like million dollar dat is a fact if u cant deal with it then disprove it with proof.

Ihedinobi: The Roman Church hinges on the fact that Lord Jesus gave the Apostle Peter authority over his comrades. She says that because of this authority and the fact that Bro Peter became her bishop (a statement in need of qualification), she has ascendancy over all believers around the world.

for those wu may understand this statement to mean that the pope claims to be greater and other christians.
§873 "....for 'in the church there is diversity of ministry but unity of mission. To the apostles and their successors christ has entrusted THE OFFICE of teaching, santifying and governing in his name and by his power...."

so to all the catholic church doesnt claim d pope is greater than any believer instead she states as a matter of fact that in the church is the organ that teaches and govern all christian in matters of faith and morals.

The principle of the remnant, the firstfruits or inclusivity via exclusivity holds that the Lord does not crystallize authority/power. He works on and with the few so that He can get the many. Therefore, the authority that Jesus put upon Peter was onto establishing all his disciples. It was dissipatory in nature, exemplified in nature by energy's tendency to get locked irretrievably in new states, something called entropy.

so entropy is part of your theology, this is d first time i'm hearing d word in theology. Entropy in chemistry denotes randomness, my God isnt random, he has a purpose. I will write clearly on what i believe. I hold that God in christ Jesus wish that in his church be found a permanent repository of truth "the church in d bullwark and foundation of truth". I firmly hold that he wished that this truth be transmitted 2 tim 2:2 and that in the apostles he established a teaching authority that is suppose to hold true even as christ words hold true wen he said "he wu hears you hears me". I also go futher to assert that power and authority has alway been transmitted in the church thru the laying of hands. I lay this as a foundation because i wish to explain sumtin deeper. When Jesus spoke against the pharisees in matt23 he made a point many pipo skip wen reading because of d criticism dat follows vs2 says "the scribe nd pharisees sit on moses seat so practice nd observe whatever they tell you.." the word seat is "cathedra" in greek so d pharisees sit of moses cathedra, this isnt sum physical stool, it is d symbol of a teaching authority that is passed down since moses, in essence Jesus gave d pharisees a certificate to teach d law simply because they were on "moses sit". Many will find this suprising but yet the pharisee had a right to teach d law even though they couldnt practice it because they are successors of moses teaching authority. To peter christ gave an whole new authority wen he said "i give u d keys" he brings to mind 1s 22:15-25 esp vs 22 it say "i will place on his shoulder d key of d h of david, he shall shut no one shall open..." these are all telling us what d keys signify. It signify d office of prime minister, a office with power and authority. The other apostles are given similar authority in matt18 but none is given the keys and dis correspond to a kingdom with one king one prime minister and many other ministers. Please note the office isnt vacant.
I wish to go futher, act 2:20 show d exact picture of what happens to an office wen d holder dies it says "his office let another take" the word translated as office is "episcopae" where we got d word episcopal translated as "oversee" that is why kjv translate it as "his bishopric let another take" it says his episcopal office let another take or again his office as an overseer let another take."
it is in this sense that d early church fathers say that peter lives and judges in his successor d bishops of rome. Because d authority/office given to peter isnt meant to die with him but to remain with the church forever...
So i dont believe that peters office disintegrated and disipated. No! I believe that it is an office as that of an overseer (bishop) it doesnt disintegrate and disipate instead it is replicated and transfered rather bestowed, just as d apostles bestow d power to oversee to their successor so did peter bestow his office to d see of rome and the early christians bear witness.

This principle is the reason that no human being is anything in themselves. Those who are more greatly blessed are so in order that those who have less will be benefited by them. The only Person Who holds complete, arbitrary sway over all things and in Whom all final authority is crystallized and reposed is God.

amen and all i have said since marwin is that d office is for d edification of d church.

This is not an exposition. It is my position and I would appreciate your thoughts on it.

the above are my thoughts i hope u consider them with an open mind.

§872 "in virtue of their rebirth in christ there exists among all d christian faithful a true equality with regards to dignity and the activity where by they cooperate in the building up of d body of christ in accord with each ones position"


it is in this sense that catholic understand the equality of believers.

After my failed attempt to understand the chemistry u adopted to theology i decided to present in the clearest term, my understanding of a christian.
§871 "christian faithful are those who, inasmuch as have bee incorporated in christ thru baptism have been constituted as the people of God; for this reason since they are sharers in christ's priestly, prophetic and royal office in their own manner, they are called to excercise d mission which God has entrusted the church fulfill in d world in accord with the codition proper to each one"
this is d catholic and my understanding of a christian, one wu is in christ thru baptism and thus among God people and thus shares the ministry of christ, so each christian is a priest wu can offer supplications to God for himself and odas, is a prophet wu is to speak forth and proclaim that which pertains to God and a member of d royal family cos my elder broda is a king. Thus empowered he is to exercise d mission God gave his church wen he said "go make disciple of all nation..." in accord with d condition proper to him.

I wanted to wait till i have slept but the thread is degenerating so pls forgive me if i dont make much sense i havent slept thru d nite.
I am a catholic and will try to explain this points as quickly and clearly as i can

Ihedinobi: The Roman Church hinges on the fact that Lord Jesus gave the Apostle Peter authority over his comrades. She says that because of this authority and the fact that Bro Peter became her bishop (a statement in need of qualification), she has ascendancy over all believers around the world.

pls take it easy here. Yes the church say peter was given the "keys of the kingdom" and yes he was, the keys of the kingdom accding to isa 22:22 is the property and insignia of the prime minister of d davidic kingdom. Christ is the new king of the kingdom it is all over scriptures and he gave the keys of his kingdom to one of his servant by that very fact he wu bears the keys is the prime minister (d foremost servant). That is how peter is d chief of d apostles and all early xtians agree and to the see he formed and died is considered his see all wu sit open that chair excercise d petrine authority (just as d pharisees were d occupiers of d chair of moses). I dont understand what you mean by "ascendency ova all believer"

The principle of the remnant, the firstfruits or inclusivity via exclusivity holds that the Lord does not crystallize authority/power. He works on and with the few so that He can get the many. Therefore, the authority that Jesus put upon Peter was onto establishing all his disciples. It was dissipatory in nature, exemplified in nature by energy's tendency to get locked irretrievably in new states, something called entropy.

i thought u hinge on d bible is dis "pinciple blah blah blah" there?

This principle is the reason that no human being is anything in themselves. Those who are more greatly blessed are so in order that those who have less will be benefited by them. The only Person Who holds complete, arbitrary sway over all things and in Whom all final authority is crystallized and reposed is God.

i cant disagree

This is not an exposition. It is my position and I would appreciate your thoughts on it.

thanks

okeyxyz: This is a classic error on the part of those who are supposed to know the gospel. Peter had the position of leader of the disciples, but then this was in the era of The Law rather than the era of gospel. The gospel was not revealed during the life of Jesus and his organization(followers). This was why Jesus spoke in parables, His messages were deliberately coded to hide the true meanings because the time was not yet right for it's revelation, otherwise the devil would not have been defeated through his death & resurrection. Now that we are in the era of grace(gospel) it would be erroneous to continue to hold on to the same structures and values as we did when we were under the law and when Jesus taught the law. So if catholics choose Peter as their head, then it's up to them but they should be aware that such structure is according to the Law, the same law that christ was supposed to have liberated us from.

16“No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment, for the patch will pull away from the garment, making the tear worse. 17Neither do men pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.”(Matthew 9:16-17)

Virtually all christians continue in this error, Still defining gospel by the image and standards of that Jesus who walked with his disciples, the jesus who preached and upheld the law, the one who made peter his chief disciple. But if you are born again, aold things are passed away, your values should change, your definition of sin should also change and should not be according to the law...but I'm digressing.

Bottom line is: Peter was not chief apostle(if ever there was one), though he was chief disciple but that was a past era. An old structure cannot be in force while the message and doctrines have changed.

actually this is as close to heresy as one can get.
Are u blind, deaf, dumb or mentally retarded that u do not understand d ful import of the above? So all christ preached in the gospel was "the law" and a "born again" christian should accept it.
Ha! My God have mercy!

chukwudi44: Give me direct quotations from any church father before the schism oppossing the primacy of peter or the roman see.This is what I have been demanding since the last thread and which you have woefully failed to do.stop beating around the bush and provide me answers.

pls chukwudi dont take d discussion to that edge the protestant wont be able to keep up, just give a simple answer to ihen

Pastor AIO: This is ingenious. The Rock is a reference to a body of knowledge on which christianity is built. Who can argue with that? Jesus didn't say "and on this Rock, Peter, I will build my church". even if he did the mentioning of Peter could simply mean that he was talking to Peter not saying that Peter was the Rock.

What other interpretations can we conjure. We've already heard that the Rock is Christ himself. Frankly, none of these positions can be argued against as they can be legitimately read from the text.

This one is pushing it a bit now though.

on the above both of you are ingenious engaging in mental gymnastics. U are d guy wu usually shout "if d literal sense makes sense seek no other sense" but today u guys are jumping

i just have one question for u, christ said "i will give u the keys of the kingdom" was he talking to "the body of knowledge on which christianity is built"? Or was he talking to himself? Or to simon peter?

My question would be, 'by what spirit did they compile the bible?' And is that Spirit incapable of helping them to interpret it.
I wonder who the right people the bible was made for are.

good question

Enigma: Two or three quick points

1. The question of the nature of the "authority" given to Peter has been the subject of issues of interpretation and one interpretation holds that the same "authority" was given to the rest of the apostles and to some extent to every Christian.

chukwudi and co have already refuted dis but u are very dishonest and has decided to waste our strenght by telling us to beat a dead goat

2. It is a misconception and a falsehood to say that the Roman Catholic Church "compiled" the Bible. That issue has already been addressed in a recent thread. https://www.nairaland.com/1039359/canon-bible-roman-catholic-church

i believe u were also refuted in that thread.

3. The Nicea Council had more or less nothing to do with the compilation of the books of the Bible; it is another myth and falsehood peddled by the misinformed. The papers/proceedings of the Council are still available on the Internet and can be consulted to see the agenda that the Council dealt with.

nicea wasnt involved with the bible, d bible was compiled by the council of hippo, d synod of rome and the council of cathage.

Ihedinobi: The Roman Church hinges on the fact that Lord Jesus gave the Apostle Peter authority over his comrades. She says that because of this authority and the fact that Bro Peter became her bishop (a statement in need of qualification), she has ascendancy over all believers around the world.

The principle of the remnant, the firstfruits or inclusivity via exclusivity holds that the Lord does not crystallize authority/power. He works on and with the few so that He can get the many. Therefore, the authority that Jesus put upon Peter was onto establishing all his disciples. It was dissipatory in nature, exemplified in nature by energy's tendency to get locked irretrievably in new states, something called entropy.

This principle is the reason that no human being is anything in themselves. Those who are more greatly blessed are so in order that those who have less will be benefited by them. The only Person Who holds complete, arbitrary sway over all things and in Whom all final authority is crystallized and reposed is God.

This is not an exposition. It is my position and I would appreciate your thoughts on it.

pls let me sleep, i wil check this up wen im awake

ogoamaka99: @ chukwudi44,
Sorry chukwudi you don't know what it means to be born again. To be Baptized is not is not born again but a religious ritual.

actually chukwudi is right on point, what did Jesus describe as "born again"? He said "born of water and the holyspirit". If ur friend or preacher tell u othewise, challenge him.

Logicboy03: See this ignoramus!

The catholic church is making billions off Africa and you are there praising them for the millions they put.

d cash that leaves niaja for rome is 2nd collection done once a year, it is called peter's pence. Most pipo i know put in 5 or 10naira, where does the million dollar come from?

bleufaucon: Good question. Black pope exists already..The jesuits control the nefarious Romish church,a flagrantly immoral and corrupt system,emanating from a history tainted with the blood of the innocents. The jesuist priests and their head are the masters behind the RCC. They are well trained in military tactics,espionage and surreptitious activities. Some speak as many as 8 to 12 languages with unprecedented ease..They have all the gold,diamond and the wealth of entire empires,past and present. The papacy is not a pacific entity hence their support for war and chaos! Only the simple and gullible will yield reason to exonerated this evil and ominous system of any blame!

u are a liar, d jesuit cant control d church becos they are an instrument of the church, the cant have d stuff of d empires becos all d empires had fallen b4 st ignatius started d jesuit. The speak many languages becos one of their job is to preach across boundaries. Go and make real research and stop been superstitious spewing forth conspiracy theories

Logicboy03: See this brainwashed christian!
The catholic church makes a huge profit off the bulletins. You forget that the catholic church has its own printing presses.

my parish doesnt have a printing press and my parish pays heavy for bullentin, bullentin is a really bad part of church account because every month offering money is invested in bulletin and nothing comes out of it. Where did u get ur information?

The govt donations and tax free status of churches is another source of income from them.

at least not in niaja, it is almost imposible for d government to donate to the church, make ur research

The catholic church in rome is worth over $1 billion. dont be a fool

this is another misinformation, the roman see isnt worth 1millon dollars in liquid asset, the billions people talk about isnt physical cash, they are immovable assets, sacred items and christian ancient art. Shuld we sell our churches to satisfy the big mouth of logicboy??

Peter262: THE WORLD OLDEST CULT HAS APPOINTED ANODA CARDINAL FROM NAIJA, ANTI CHRIST IS REALY AT WORK, THE POPE IS THE MESSENGER OF SATAN FROM HELL, AM A PURE PROTESTANT AGAINST ANTICHRIST CUZ CATHOLIC IS NOT A CHUTCH BUT A CULT. EMMANUEL MILINGO WHERE ARE YOU, READ UR BIBLE AD FORGET ABOUT THIS WOLVES IN SHEEP CLOTHING. TIME TO PRAY TO GOD. GO AD READ JERMIAHE33;3

milingo has been excommunicated by benedict. Besides what is your problem with milingo

cold: Catholicism & slavery are like Siamese twins.The Catholic church did not condemn slavery till 1965!The black man just continues to trudge in this world like zombies.They remain in chains & mentally enslaved.When will these people wake up from their slumber?It's a sorry state of affairs

you are a very big liar chattel slavery was condemn by the church as early as 1435. Do u want a proof-based discussion or are you only interested in making unfounded claims?

solbil: its long overdue. It seems the pope is aware of his demise anytime soon. Despite this, the possiblity of seeing a pope from sub-saharan africa is still very slim. Can you imagine a black pope!

benedict isnt going anywhere, he is becoming more and more physically weak but he isnt dying. The cardinal with a right in conclave MUST be at all times about 120, benedict is simply making sure. And i wont be suprise if arinze is d next pope.

papadenzel: http://dailytimes.com.ng/article/pope-names-onaiyekan-5-others-cardinals

it is long overdue

seriallink: ^^^
I think I have read something like this in the Book of Enoch.

i thought as much, where did u get Enoch to read? I thought those books were extinct.

obadiah777: LOL YEAH HE A COOL BREDA. JUST MESSING WITH HIM. ME AND REYGINUS GO WAY BACK LIKE BABY AND DIAPERS

really?? This means you guys are quite 'recent'. If u were old pals u would have said "baby and napkins".

truthislight: let me still show it to you that animal and man have the same spirit.

"For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity." (Ecclesiastes 3:19).

Learn well.

wow! Truthislight has no importance above a beast, wow, wen will people learn to interprete scripture well.

ijawkid: From this your statement you are indirectly telling us that God is the cause of everybody's temporal suffering right now on earth.....abi??......

egba mi o! Ijawkid y are u puting words in my mouth, i talked about a reality, i didnt mention anything like "cause". Ijawkid these are your words, i tag them back at ya.

For you to say that"" eternal torment"" is as real as ""temporal suffering"" is so preposterous.....you just completely pÀinted God the evil guy who keeps on suffering peoplÉ for all eternity......

you are d person wu did, adam sin and brought temporal suffering on humanity by each man sin he make himself a debtor of divine justice

Even the now suffering we experience today has an end when we die......so why insinuate God would suffer persons for all eternity??....


So I'll ask you::::

1...Who is the cause of our temporal sufferiÑgs??

2......Who will be the cause of everlasting torment and suffering??

man

Horus: SANTA, SATAN AND THE POPE: THE UNHOLY TRINITY
Article: http://www.theconspiracyzone.org/posts/32574

hahaha, very funny what next? Hey d christmas tree is also a cult practice and those who have them are cultist. It is a pity that those wu call themselves christians are so superstitious and fanatical. U havent been set free, u minds are still in bondage, it is a pity.

Boomark: Is this one of his statements?

where is the full speech? my friend, no one can provide proof he said that, if u can give me his full speech then this is just a comic act.

I really hope u review ur question after this

Boomark: having his fullness as a son makes you equal to him.
Being his servant as his son makes him greater than you. Is it with or with out his fullness?

phi 2:6 show my point very well. He has the very nature of God, the fullness of the diety yet he wasnt interested in holding on to that equality he didnt think of it as sumtin to b grasped but instead he emptied himself he took the human nature, the nature of a servant, it is in this way that christ is a servant becos he took the nature and position of a servant.
I will be highly disappointed if after this u ask me a silly question like "is it with or without his fullness?". If u cant want to ask a reasonable question then u shuld try silience

Boomark: The question carry you enter tight corner. But it is based on what you replied. I expected you to say it is a mystery at this point to bail your self. I will certainly understand.

there is nothing mysterious there, ur question sounds s.tupid, it seem like an attempt to insult my intelligence.

Ihedinobi: I agree with italo.

There is one alone who holds all authority over the meanings of the Scriptures and all questions of life: the Lord God.

Saying the above means, ogoamaka, that the questions of life, whether Scriptural doctrine or whatever, are not open to private interpretation. You cannot say that colors are whatever we say they are. There is a definite color called red whether your eyes can perceive it or not. And the fact that some poor dude who is partially color-blind sees it as sort of grayish does not make it other than red, it just makes it indiscernible to him.

Now, even though that is the case, it is not Christ for anyone who perceives red to bully the color-blind guy into accepting the color to be red whether he can see it or not. There are two approaches open to the guy with better perception and they follow upon each other:

1. bear with the failings of the weak one and cover those failings just like soldiers protect the blind sides of one another in warfare. This does not mean to excuse such failures as though they were anything but. It means to rebuke the person and even in doing so, be very ready for every small sign that they are repenting and take hold of it to help them into the Truth.

2. be conscious that rebuke, whether soft/mild or sharp, is something that can either be accepted or rejected. So, if the brother/sister warned is unrepentant, they should be left alone, not bullied. Everyone has a right to reject God or accept Him. That is the ruling principle.


Now, as to how to know who is correct and is speaking the oracles (mind) of God (which is what prophecy is), we have the gift of reason. Among Christians, the faculty of reason is alive and well. Therefore, the Christians must powwow over every point of difficulty in living the Life of Christ. We are each given unique bits of the revelation of Christ. It is together that we come to see the whole picture, something Jesus meant when He spoke of being completely revealed in the midst of a gathering of two or three believers. If, for instance, a Christian falls upon the issue of tithing, it is very dangerous for him to sweep it under the carpet. He is better off discussing it with other brethren of his and being bold to put forth his arguments for it.

By the operation of reason governed by the Spirit of Christ, he will learn the truth through those whom the Lord had previously taught in the matter by experience. He will be able to see what is right or wrong with his arguments and right or wrong with his brothers' and sisters' argument. Thus, he is corrected and/or strengthened in the truth. Of course, it does not always happen all at once. It may take time but the sign of Christ is in the willingness of the brother to consider that he may be wrong. That willingness is what will help him recognize the lessons that the Holy Spirit will teach him in various experiences that will come his way with respect to the issue.

The sign of antichrist is simply a refusal to even consider that one is not the repository of all knowledge. At best, we are channels through which God pours out knowledge of Himself. We ourselves are not the source. But when one has been established in the truth regarding anything, that one can speak without wavering and his authority will be incontrovertible. BUT such an one is known by his pity and ability to accept rejection of the truth that he is in custody of without vengefulness.

In conclusion, it is indeed a matter of personal opinion, but opinion formed by the operation of the Holy Spirit through obedient experience and interaction with other believers. That is why the opinions of believers tend to agree.

in summary, there is truth and yet everybody sees d truth thru their different lens, from different perspectives. That doesnt mean the truth has changed it means it is hardly understood. At the end of the story everybody can only accept that which seem sensible to them, it is all opinion. I cant find a difference btw ur arguement and that of ogoamaka.

You are joking

truthislight: this apostolic writings were hand copied from one congregation to another as paul commanded that they do.

He will ask them to collect from this congregation or that, or he will ask them to read the letter he sent to the other congregation.

show me where the bible say all the congregation had all pauls letter, can you do that The fact remain nobody who wrote was interested in puting everything that was revealed in ink, read 2 tim2:2 and u will see how they transmitted the word of God.

Dont you read the bible to see this or you are just infested in saying that RCC gave us the bible?
*sigh*

i read the bible very well and only a person wu is ignorant of scriptures will tell me that paul was writting a bible wen he wrote. Besides i hate your tune, if u wish to discuss with me next time do not mention d rcc in a insultive way or i will be very interested in doing same with the ur kingdom halls and d watchtower. If u want to be respected learn to respect.

frosbel: yeah , your catholic brother, you guys are all the same with POPE , MARY and all the Paganism that goes with it .

frosbel will soon reject christ becos d pope accepts him.

frosbel: Jesus is the 100% Human Son of the Living GOD.

To suggest that GOD is his own father and Son is the kind of talk that get's people sent to the asylum !

now it seems u have lost it, please tell me im wrong! U are just trying to find a way out of the fact that the word was God, u are a "cherrypicker".

frosbel: ^^^^


I can see you are still defending the POPE's PAGAN Trinity on behalf of your protestant brethren.

hahaha, wu told u that d pope was present in nicea? He was too old to travel so he sent representatives. To ascribe d trinity to the pope is to declear ur ignorance in public.

frosbel: When I say that a lot of churches are the daughters of that HARLOT Pagan catholic church I get attacked.

Is it not quite frightening that all these false doctrines propagated by your POPE and his ROMAN church for over a 1000 years are very much adopted by many protestant churches.

Protestant churches making a pact with SATAN and conforming to their Babylonian doctrines ?

i saw u screaming "ROMAN", "PAGAN". Since u have problem with rome do u also have problem with alexandria, constantinople, antioch, egypt,etc the list is very long, all the ancient churches believe in an eternal hell, all d orthodox and orientals, mind u they arent protestants. So the next time you want to scream about rome be careful becos i may compel u one day to add all the ancient churches so it will be clear to everyone that u have a teaching that has no basis in christian theology. That mean u and ur fellows invented it.