₦airaland Forum

NativeBoy: The content of that page is stating that some of the Christian fathers used Greek philosophical thinking to make their own philosophical arguments about the Judeo-Christian God. Again, this has nothing to do with Judeo-Christian values/ethics. There are no Hellenistic influences on Judeo-Christian values/ethic. Those were already well defined before the Greeks came on the scene.

Then you didn't read the link I sent. The Judeo-Christian values were defined at a time when Hellenistic philosophy was the dominant viewpoint of that part of the world. These people did not live in complete isolation of what was around them. There is a significant influence of Hellenistic philosophy on Christianity. Even the idea of the Trinity itself is probably no more than an imitation of the Greek mystery cults that were flourishing at the time of Jesus.

texanomaly: *rolls eyes*

Here we go again....

Here is my response to that...

https://www.nairaland.com/1328270/god-does-not-allow-things#16305388

Now you come back with the same response I hear every time this debate comes up. Then someone else chimes in with another 'canned' response....and the cycle begins again.

There has got to be a better way.

Well then if your god allows us the free will to do great evil (for example kill a child in cold blood), then he is not good. He is something else. If he allows a super-powerful creature like 'satan' to exist and tempt people then he is probably on the side of evil.

NativeBoy: This is a false statement. Jewish history predates the Greek. Please point to where the Jews became exposed to Hellenistic philosophies. Was it the Greek concept of monotheism that the Jews took from them?

Which Christian values were taken from Hellenistic philosophy?

History is not the same as a philosophical view of the world and god. Sure Jewish history predates that of the Hellenistic world, but a fair amount of Greek philosophy entered Jewish thinking beginning with Philo of Alexandria and continuing on up to the 10th century when Greek philosophy began to be studied again in the Arab-Persian world. But no, the Greeks were definitely not monotheists.

For the Hellenstic influences in Christianity, a look at this page might shed some light on the subject:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenistic_philosophy_and_Christianity

If you wonder why there is so much insanity and misery in the world, look no further than the Bible:

"for the LORD your God, who lives among you, is a jealous God. His anger will flare up against you, and he will wipe you from the face of the earth."
Deuteronomy 6:15

"For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every vile practice." James 3:16

texanomaly: I find Mr Troll's statement interesting. Many, not all, of the atheist here on NL were raised as Christians, by their own admission. They have no personal evidence that this particular hypothesis has any scientific credence. How would they know? The fact that they are atheist now, does not negate the fact they spent their formative years as Christians. Mr Troll, weather you like, it or not, your current value system and morality are based on a Christian upbringing. There is no escaping it. Somewhere in your subconscious, are those values you learned as a child. How can you differentiate from whence your value system is derived.

Christian values and, to a lesser extent, Jewish values are themselves largely based on pagan Hellenistic philosophies such as the Stoics, as well as the thinking of Plato. Judaism and Christianity are not exclusively the beginning of 'modern' moral values.

Sheykul Islam: @ OP if i have a pen on my hand showing it to an athiest and i say its a book definately he will say its a pen because for him to know dat he must know what a pen or a book is. For an athiest to believe that God doesnt exist he must know who God is. So to the athiest who is God ? B4 u can deny his existence

The gods that have been defined by the various religions, these are the gods that we deny. It is the believers that have created these gods and define them, and now they should prove the existence of their gods. We're waiting. Handing us a 'holy book' as proof is nothing--they all came from the hands of men. Stating that creation must have a creator then causes us to ask who created the creator? And which one of your gods created this?

Yooguyz: Onetrack = ooman ?

very flattering, but no. This is my only username.

In my opinion the only advantages Christianity has over Islam is the fact that it is less rigid and the fact that Jesus clearly states that you should love your neighbor as yourself (even your enemies).

The rest is all the same: both are tools for controlling and manipulating people, and both have often been used to justify wars and other barbarities.

I will pray that my god, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, makes you go and buy platform shoes.

frank3.16:
read the bible and saw a lot of contradictions... but when i read the quran, i just had to conclude that it was the mot useless book ever written in the history of the world. i just cant imagine what kind of people would convinced that god or allah would communicate with people via books filled with contradictions and false claims.

just seeing both christians and moslems come here to argue on their superiority over each other is pathetic enough to conclude that both religious folks are false and deceptive. unless u try to tell me that god or allah is satisfied with how ya all come here and embarass urselves in his name. u guys are nothing but blind and pathetic.

u are all a disgrace to ur creator. i have no choice but to give up on ya all. have fun embarassin urselves. i hope by the end of the day both christians and moslems would peel of the scale of decept that is covering ur both eyes.

Well said. Arguing over whose holy book is more true is like saying "my god can beat up your god!!".....a complete waste of time; unfortunately some people kill other people over this very idea. Religion poisons everything.

As an atheist, all books look like they were written by people. Look at the 'science' in the Quran (yes, I have read the Quran). There are errors galore in regards to embryology (copied from the Roman biologist Galen), mistakes about the universe and solar system (the sun sets into a mud puddle, it goes to a resting place at night).

An obvious error in the Quran regarding Christianity is 5:116 where it mentions that the Christian Trinity is Jesus, God, and Mary. Any Christian knows that the Trinity has always been Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit.

Christianity itself is loaded with errors but you should also recognize the many errors in Islam. And I didn't even mention the hadiths which have many bizarre ideas.

All religion is man-made. Richard Burton, the famous British explorer (he even visited Mecca in 1853), wrote: "The more I travel the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."

My friend had his arm amputated. I would like for you to pray for him so that he will grow a new arm.

The major problem with this story is that evolution IS observable and the brain IS observable. Epic fail. Unfortunately this story circulates constantly; I've seen it so many times.

aManFromMars: Yeah, there should be freedom of belief and government should ensure that necessary security is provided to curtail activities of extremists on both sides.

On the other hand, I won't mind if Christianity and Islam are kicked out of Africa.

For those Africans who this might shock, imagine how the homosexuals feel too. Your turn is coming surely.

I also wouldn't mind if Africa left Islam and Christianity behind, but it's better to do it through education, not oppression. With the internet, it wouldn't take much to show people the many flaws of these religions. It already is making a difference.

However, I do not see where this news is real.

I'm a firm atheist but I oppose this if it is true. Freedom of conscience is the cornerstone of any society that wants to call itself civilised. It's true that Saudi Arabia bans all religions except Islam and that some other Muslim countries make it difficult for non-Muslims to practice, but I disagree with them equally as well. Maybe Angola will ban atheism next, then non-Catholic Christianity, then?

Catholics used to separate men and women during the church service, however they abandoned this practice. I can't exactly tell you when though. Some churches did this up through the 1960s.

Especially given that this 'god' can easily make himself and his word known directly to everybody if he wants to. But he doesn't; he prefers to work through 'prophets' who bring 'holy books' and we have to figure out which one is correct, and how to interpret these holy books correctly. If not, we roast forever. And we are supposed to believe that he is all-good?

There is, in my mind, a big difference between simply opposing homosexuality and wanting homosexuals put in prison. Same with incest. While I'm not a big fan of either, I am totally against prosecuting them and locking them up. I am also not against gay marriage, but if a community opposes gay marriage or incest marriage then I respect that.

Many atheists have no desire to discuss or debate with theists. Those are the ones you'll never see on the religion section.

However, some atheists are former believers and have some desire to justify their change of positions, even of just to satisfy themselves.

And some atheists, seeing logic and reason as the center of belief, enjoy trying to reason with others just because they enjoy doing so (a hobby, you might say)

And some atheists want to sow the seeds of doubt in the minds of theists so that they will be more tolerant of other religious beliefs and non-beliefs. Like trying to head off extremism before it starts.

And some atheists are actively trying to convert others, like missionaries.

Divepen: I am a living witnesss...i had this severe pain @ my side...
I prayed to God and promised i wud share the testimony among my friends...now the pain is gone...

Once I had a severe pain in my foot. I did not pray. Now the pain is gone.

TO ALL ATHEIST, MUSLIMS, JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES, UNBELIEVERS AND BELIEVERS
On the 11th of September 2013, the LORD said to me, “THE TIME IS OVER”

Stopped reading right there.

You were experiencing 'night terrors', a fairly normal occurrence in childhood around the world. Nothing satanic, no witchcraft or anything else; it is the product of an immature brain, and easily explainable in terms of biology. You grew out of it because of your brain's maturity and not because of the intervention of some god.

This atheist remains completely unconvinced.

chimuchi: ONE THING I KNOW FOR SURE IS THAT If all so called Christians follow the Bible correctly, all will do things same way. The truth is that majority are blind spiritually, and narrow is the way to life.

Only a few group of Christians know the truth. If you follow the multitude, you are on the wide path to DESTRUCTION. God will destroy all religious leaders who mislead people for the sake of money. You will all perish.

It is really amazing at how many people in the world claim that they know the absolute truth, and then spend their time fighting or arguing with others who ALSO claim absolute truth.

You will all perish.

You are correct about this, but I think most people already know this.

Most of the world's atheists aren't in Europe, they're in China; however, the number of atheist/agnostics/non-religious is rising rapidly all over the world (at least, where it is legal). Europe is now mostly non-religious, though many still claim a vague Christianity. The US at 20% non-religious is behind a ways but is starting to catch up. I suspect that Africa will be the last to give up religion, given the strong desire of many Africans to be led around on a leash by some religious leader.

I-am-Winner:
Did u type this post from hell?.
Do u realise that u r stil breathing?.

Despite d fact dat u r talking trash abt GOD u r stil alive.
That's what Unconditional love is.

It would also mean that he would never allow a devil or a hell to exist.

The living God in His infinite and unconditional love

Well if his love is infinite and unconditional then he certainly cannot be offended by the fact that we don't believe in him, and he could never, say, throw us into an eternal fire, right?

ubl6: Those verses and similar ones can indeed serve as a warning but cannot force people to believe the Quran. For me (and I'm sure millions of other muslims) we didn't just believe for fear of punishment. We believe because we are fully convinced the Quran is the truth from our Lord. If you don't agree with me on this, it's very easy to test. Do the following exercise:
*Claim to be a prophet from God
*Write your own book and say you receive it from God
*In your “Word of God” write that, God says Muhammad lied against Him. He was a false prophet, therefore God is commanding the muslims to come and accept His message given to you.
*Make sure in your “Word of God” you threaten us with WORSE punishment than the one mentioned in the Quran if we don't believe you.
*Do this exercise and see if the Muslim Ummah will throw away the Quran and follow you for “fear of punishment”
That can never be possible! We will only expose you as a false prophet, for it's not difficult to distinguish the true prophets from the false ones. So you see mere written threats of punishment in any book cannot force people to believe in it. Most of us believe because we are convinced with the available evidences. The Quran itself declares:
لَا إِكْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ ۖ قَدْ تَبَيَّنَ الرُّشْدُ مِنَ الْغَيِّ ۚ
‘Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error’ 2:256
So, if you sincerely think you are not convinced with the available evidences for God or any religion, you can choose to disbelieve (as you already did). This is why you have free will. You can do whatever you like with your life, it isn't everyone's cup of tea. But do not see us, who believe, as brainwashed fools. Many of us are more educated, more scientific and more rational than you can ever be.

How many years will you give me? Will you also give me an army with which to persuade? Muhammad preached peacefully for 13 YEARS and only converted about 80 people. It was only when he came to Mecca with an army, and forced the surrender of the city, that 2000 people converted. Then when he died a lot of those converts declared that they did not really believe Muhammad and had only converted to be on the winning side in the war. So Muhammad's followers had to take up arms and fight and kill those people (Ridda Wars). So first of all I need an army to 'convince' people.

Secondly, I cannot think of any punishment that would be worse than being roasted in a fire for eternity, with which I can threaten people into believing me. Your god certainly gets first prize for being the cruelest character in all of fiction.

And there is no real free will in Islam. How can you not know that as a Muslim?

anochuko01: pls o, does witchcraft and magic exist? If no, cool...but if yes, where do pple get their powers from? If there are un-seen powers, where do they come from? Wont something be responsible for super-natural events? If we beliv that MONEY RITUALS, CULTS, SANGO, OGUN OSUN, IFA etc all exist, apart from stupidity, why do we now find it DIFFICULT TO BELIEVE that GOD and d devil EXIST?

Who are you addressing? If atheists, then you should know that none of us believe in supernatural events or powers, so all those rituals and cults are fake. If you are addressing people that believe in those things, then you are not addressing atheists.

deols: If you are not learning Islam from Muslims, you are simply deceiving yourself. learning the truth indeed...can't stop laughing at that.

And so the best way to learn about Nazis is by learning from Nazis themselves, the best way to learn about Boko Haram is by learning from Boko Haram themselves.....ok I see....

Sorry, all I'll get from Muslims is the mostly inoffensive side of Islam. I have read the Quran myself, and many of the hadiths.....to tell me I need a Quranic scholar to understand anything is to admit that the Quran is poorly written. And yes I've even read a fair amount of the tafsir (exegesis) of Ibn Kathir, and it's not all that nice.

What makes Quran unique is the way its message is passed. The message was memorised and passed from generation to generation in the form that it was revealed. How possible could it have been(if it was a folklore) that started only about a thousand years plus ago..to have been passed on in the same manner and format.

There is the written Quran in books and there are people who have memorised from people who memorised from those who did...until the time of the prophet

There are people still collecting chains of transmission of hadith until this day.

In Islam, you'd hear words like..deols the daughter of A heard it from the son of B who narrated it from C etc..and the trace gets to be to the exact date and time of the prophet. If proven to be otherwise, the hadith is rejected as weak.

Oral transmission is an extremely unreliable way of transmitting history. Human memory is much more unreliable than most people think. If someone tells me that a story was finally written down 200 years after the event I assume it's primarily a myth. (I am somewhat knowledgeable about this as it is part of my training and occupation) See the Trojan War by Homer and tell me if you think it describes exactly what happened 300 years earlier.

Did Muhammad really split the moon? This is mentioned in Bukhari (considered the gold standard for Muhammad's life) in multiple hadiths and thus is considered true by Muslims.

deols: and what does this prove? It says that some books have been written like the Quran without mentioning the book.


and a philosopher, whose state of mind at the time of writing this is unknown, is to be believed. because he said so? Lol.

If course it doesn't prove anything, but they're great, pithy quotes by people who were much closer in time to the creation of Islam and Christianity than we are. And one of the quotes does mention the Quran by name.....

And there's no way I would just accept the writings of someone as being absolute proof or truth by themselves.....after all, I'm not religious.

ubl6: Al-Quran 83:10-17
10. Woe, that Day, to those that deny-
11. Those that deny the Day of Judgment.
12. And none can deny it but the transgressor beyond bounds, the sinner!
13. When Our verses are rehearsed to him, he says, “Tales of the ancients!”
14. By no means! but on their hearts is the stain of the (ill) which they do!
15. Verily, from (the Light of) their Lord, that Day, will they be veiled.
16. Further, they will enter the Fire of Hell.
17. Further, it will be said to them: “This is the (reality) which ye rejected as false!”

This all man-made. Just like the Bible. The main goal was to scare people into obeying these people who wrote the Quran.

I don't get why this god is so obsessed with putting people in a fire. If he created the world just because he wanted to then he is responsible for all that happens. Fortunately this man-made god does not exist.