₦airaland Forum

Abdulgaffar22:
"12 The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. 13 Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. 14 Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard him say it." (Mark 11:12-14)



According to theory of incarnation and hypostatic union, Jesus was both human and God at the same time during his mission on the surface of the Earth. Therefore, if the fact that Jesus was hungry (as stated in the passage above) reflected his human nature, then similarly his divine nature should be reflected by the fact that Jesus knows everything. However, this is not the case!

It is very clear from the passage above that Jesus didn't know whether the fig tree had fruits or not until he reached the tree. Yet one of the indisputable attributes of God is having a perfect knowledge about all things.

In the light of this very evidence, how can anyone reasonably believe that Jesus is God ?

The hypostatic union means Jesus is God and Man and so could exhibit both attributes.
Limited wisdom is an attribute of a human which Jesus demonstrated.
It does not contradict, Jesus human nature is limited in knowledge not his God nature.

Abdulgaffar22:
Why God can never become a Man


First premise ; Existence of God has no beginning. In other words, God does not begin to exist. This is because if God began to exist, then there would be need for another God to bring that God into an existence and the cycle would be repeated to form an infinite regress. Hence, God must not begin to exist.

Do you believe in the first premise ? If no please signify. If yes, let's proceed to the next premise


Second premise ; If God does not begin to exist, then God did not create Himself at first instance. This is because something that was created must definitely have beginning.

Do you believe in the the second premise? If no please signify. If yes, let's proceed to the next premise.


Third premise ; If God did not create Himself at first instance, then God was not the determinant of His own nature since His nature was not created by Him. But God is the sole determinant of the nature of all things that He created.

Do you believe in the third premise ? If no please signify. If yes, let's proceed to the next premise



Fourth premise ; If God Himself was not the determinant of His own nature, then God cannot just "change" or "transform" His own nature to something else .


"I am the Lord. I change not (Malachi 3:6)
"

Do you believe in the fourth premise ? If no please signify. If yes, let's proceed to the conclusion


Conclusion ; If God cannot just "change" or "transform" His own nature to something else, then God's nature cannot be modified in any way ( either by addition or by subtraction) to become or acquire human nature .

Hence, Jesus (a human baby that developed inside the womb of a woman) cannot be God.


“This is what the Lord says—Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty:


I am the first and I am the last; apart from Me there is no God. Who then is like Me? Let him proclaim it............ Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides Me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.” (Isaiah 44:6-9)


It's very clear from the verses above that only God the Father ( as indicated by the personal pronoun I and Me) was speaking in exclusion of any other person. Now if the speaker (i:e God the Father) declared that "there is no other God besides Me", then how can you still believe that Jesus, a Man, (who is quite different from God the Father) is also God ?


Even Jesus himself also confirmed this obvious truth when he said ;

this is eternal life, that they may know You (i:e the God the Father), the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You (i:e the God the Father) have sent (John 17:3)


Again, it's very clear that the Man called Jesus was addressing another person (i:e God the Father) apart from himself as the only true God. Therefore, if God the Father is the only true God according to Jesus and Jesus is not the same person as the God the Father, then Jesus cannot be God.


Have you ever thought that if Jesus is truly not God and you deliberately take him as God, then you have certainly committed idolatry.


Qur'an declared as follows ;


"Those who say: "God is the Jesus Christ, son of Mary" have certainly fallen into disbelief. But the Christ himself said: "O Children of Israel! Worship God, my Lord and your Lord." Verily, whosoever sets up partners with God, then God has forbidden Paradise for him, and the Fire will be his abode. And for the polytheists there are no helpers (Qur'an 5:72)"

When God took on the form of man he didn't cease from being God.
When you put on clothes do you stop being a human being, does that reduce or increase your humanity?

Same way when God became man it didn't add or remove his divine nature.

Slain in the spirit is unbilical, truth is the pentecostal/charismatic movements left the bible to pursue experience.
The bible warned the church to guarded against error and should protect the purity of the doctrine of christ elsewhere is lead astray like eve was.

False doctrine, baptism is just symbolic. It does not mean anybody that is not baptize is not in christ.
Baptism and communion are only symbolic these are physical demonstration of the new birth and the remembrance of christ sacrifice.

Flee from spiritism/ energy receiving/channeling, they are actually the devils ot demons.

Practices such as yoga and the likes are way to possessions by these spirits/energies.

MikeofAfrica:
1. Your point has always been that it is a sin for a woman to carry a seed that is not from her husband in her womb. That is why I used the example of Mary whose seed was conceive by the Holy Spirit .

I asked you was Jesus the seed of a man?

2. If you choose to buy a seed of another man that has already germinated into a baby and another woman choose to buy the original seed and use it to make a baby by herself, both of you are ideologically doing the same thing.
Hence whether you buy a finished product or you buy the raw material to make the finished product by yourself, you are working towards the same objective.

getting an already made car and making a car are they the same?

3. In Genesis 38: 8-9, Judah told Oman to sleep with his late brother's wife and have kids for the dead. God killed Oman for not obeying his father.
Note that Oman did not marry the woman before Judah asked him to sleep with her.

In some culture, the man might have to marry his late brother's wife before having kids for him but in some culture, he can have kids for his late brother without marrying his wife.

Onah actually married his brother's wife.

Genesis 38:8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.

Who is talking of culture here?
There are cultures that permit eating of humans does that make it right?

MikeofAfrica:
The only problem here is that you have refuse to be pragmatic in your approach to this issue.
I did not say that Mary had Artificial Insemination. She conceive through the Holy Spirit which is similar to Artificial Insemination since the seed was not from her husband.

So which man owns the seed of Mary's pregnancy?

You agreed with me that adoption is not a sin. When you adopt a child, are you not buying a seed from a man that is not your husband. Is that not the same ideology as Articifial Insemination.

and who said adoption is a sin?
You cunning trying to dodge. The issue is not buying but using it to make babies.

Religion has make many of us to become rigid. Do you even know that God permits a man to have kids for his brother if he is dead or impotent? No Pastor will tell you these things but you have to get to the point of maturity where you will not regard all compromise as sin.

haha are you not rigid when you said you don't support homosexuality?
Is it not religion that placed a ban on fornication and adultery?
God didn't permit a man to have kids for his brother outside marriage, the man must marry the woman first.

MikeofAfrica:
First, I am totally against all forms of homosexuality. It is a sin and abomination before God and Man.
However on the issue of Artificial Insemination, there are arguements in it's favor. Mary had Jesus through a process that we can describe as Spiritual insemination. That is a wisdom of God which He expect us to imitate.
Hence It is not a sin for a woman approaching her menopause and who is not lucky to have a husband to have a baby through artificial insemination. That is applying wisdom to solve a problem which is in accordance to the teachings of the Bible.

It is very similar to adopting a child. In adoption, you legally buy a seed that has already germinate while in artificial insemination, you legally buy a raw seed and have it germinate in your womb. So what is the difference since you are buying the seed of a man that is not your husband in both cases.?

You cannot compare the pregnancy of Mary to artificial insemination, why?
The seed of Mary's pregnancy was not the seed of a man.
Artificial insemination is using the seed of a man to cause fertilization.

If the seed is not of a woman's husband then it is a sin.

Adoption and Insemination are not similar.
You have just stated their difference? One is making a baby the other is making a baby yours.
The only legal way to make a baby in God's sight is to get married another is sin.

There is no argument here.

Note artificial insemination is not a sin if the seed is from the husband.

MikeofAfrica:
I agree with you that they can adopt. However what is the difference between adoption and Articifial insemination?
Adoption is like someone buying an orange friut while Articifial insemination is like someone buying a seed of orange to plant in her farm.
Hence both adoption and articifial insemination have the same objectives.
However Articifial Insemination has the advantage of creating a bond between the mother and child and also preventing the child from been ridicule as an adopted child by the society.

a child is not a seed of mango you can just chose to plant.
Artificial insemination is taking the seed of a man that is not your husband to make babies in adoption does not involve making babies.

You see the difference?

What is destroying the world is sin, everyone wants to make rules for themselves.

That is why homosexuality, transgender is growing because the practioners don't see anything wrong with it.

You Can never have morality with God. If you live outside christ you will die outside christ and end up in eternity outside christ.

MikeofAfrica:
There are more women than men in our world hence with the modern practise of one man and one wife, many women will not be priviledge to have a husband.
Are you now saying that we should also deny these women the privilege of having a child through Artificial insemination?

They can adopt children.

I may not agree with op on some things but this is correct. The seed is from a man that is not her husband.

Malachi 2:15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.

one of the reasons God created marriage is to have a godly seed.

Dtruthspeaker:
shocked! how can you say this? has thy light started going out?

name one good person in hell?

Name one good person without sin?

budaatum:
You too been there and saw a lot of good people in hell?

Why bother being good if hell might be the reward, and how the hell did they get there?

they get there because of sin and there is nobody that has no sin. By God's standard there is nobody that is good because we all are sinners both by birth and by deeds.


God is a perfect God he cannot allow sin into his kingdom.

dattaswami1:
Pravrutti is the subject related to your behavior, duties and actions towards the creation of God. Nivrutti is the subject related to your personal relationship with the Creator of this creation. Both subjects are equally important and are deeply inter-related.

To understand the above concept, let us take an example in which you are supposed to be an employee in a factory. Pravrutti is the code of conduct involving discipline of your job explaining the rules and regulations of your day to day work. If you are perfect in Pravrutti helping the smooth running of good administration in the factory, the owner of the factory is personally impressed with you and offers some favours to you even without your request. This personal appreciation and good looks of the owner constitute Nivrutti.

Therefore, Nivrutti can be achieved through Pravrutti only. If you are not doing your job in proper way, you will not be favoured by the owner in spite of your hectic efforts to impress upon the owner. The primary aim of the owner is that the factory should run on proper rules and any disturbance in this area cannot please the owner. The third upper world is Heaven, which is awarded as a favour for your good Pravrutti. The seventh upper world is the Abode of God, which is the fruit of Nivrutti. How can you obtain the seventh upper world without reaching the third upper world? The owner gives opportunity to a good and disciplined employee only for a meeting in his residence.

An undisciplined employee ready for dismissal cannot get such personal opportunity. Therefore, you should never think that this world and its works are not divine. The entire world is the property of God and is fully divine. All your worldly actions are perfectly divine and are related to the impression of God. Hence, you should do your job and household duties with perfect care and attention. If everybody does like this, the entire world runs well with perfect peace. Any violation gives head-ache to God resulting in anger.

You should work sincerely for the progress of your family, your city, your district, your nation and your entire world of humanity. Progress should be motive of your work, but it should not be at the cost of justice and established discipline of the society. Corruption of money (Artha) and illegal sexual contacts (Kama) should be perfectly controlled according to ethical scripture (Dharma) given by God to this world. If Artha and Kama are controlled by Dharma, the Moksha (Salvation) is spontaneous.

The first three come under Pravrutti and the fourth comes under Nivrutti. It is said that if the first two are controlled by the third, Pravrutti is successful (Apyarthakaamau Tasyaastaam Dharmaayaiva Maneeshinah– Raghuvamsha). The injustice always resides in the first two and tries to oppose the third. You should always vote for Dharma against Adharma (injustice). Progress should never be at the cost of justice. If you violate the rules in your job for the sake of progress of the factory, the owner will not appreciate it since more severe disturbance will take place. Therefore, you should not violate the justice even for the sake of the welfare of the society. If the owner himself comes to you and asks to violate a rule, you should violate it for the sake of the owner because it is a test for your loyalty to the master.

Except on this one occasion, you should never violate the Pravrutti in the name of the progress. Pravrutti is of top most importance and the Divine Scriptures like the Bible, the Quran, the Dammapadam etc., concentrate only on Pravrutti. Even in the Gita, the Lord said that He incarnates again and again to establish Pravrutti only (Dharma Samsthaapanaarthaaya…). He also said that you have to leave the Pravrutti of Justice only in the context of its competition with the Lord (Sarvadharmaan… Gita) since the Gita deals both Pravrutti and Nivrutti.

Vivarta - Parinama

People often find fault with the Creator through a false argument that the individual soul is destined by God in every action. The individual soul is given full freedom in the selection of an action in this world as said in the Gita (Nakartrutvam na karmaani). This is the only field in which the individual soul enjoys full freedom. Hence, you are fully responsible of your entire fate since the fruits of your own actions destine your fate. Leaving this aspect, the individual souls do not have full freedom in any other aspect.

The individual soul cannot control the damage of any system and cannot rectify the damage present in its own body. The individual soul is said to be generated from the food (Annatpurushah). This does not mean that the individual soul is a direct product of the food like a wave arising from water (Vivarta). In this way, the inert energy is generated from the food because there is no addition of some other visible factor like the milk becoming curd after the addition of little butter milk (Parinaama).

In fact, even the Vivarta is affected by Parinama in least scale due to association of some external factor, which is invisible. This means that the water itself is not becoming water wave. When the water is associated with invisible kinetic energy, the wave appears. Otherwise, the static water can generate only static water. Since the external factor in Vivarta is invisible, we are assuming the absence of any external factor. You can treat the generation of inert energy from the matter as Vivarta since the closely associated particles in the matter in the atomic and sub-atomic states become energy.

The particle-nature of the energy is accepted. Here also, when the particles move apart, additional space is added and thus, there is addition of new invisible factor. This inert energy enters the nervous system and its specific work form in such specific system is the awareness or individual soul. Therefore, new properties join the product in the generation through Vivarta or Parinama. The form of water wave and different taste of the curd are the added new properties of the product. Hence, the individual soul generated from the inert food develops the new property, which is little freedom.

The objection here is that the external factors like nervous system etc., are also inert only and the appearance of freedom becomes impossible. The absence of freedom is the characteristic of inertia. In spite of absence of such little freedom, God has given little or full freedom to the individual soul and has given full freedom in selection of the action. This full freedom cannot be extended to other places by the individual soul and the inherent absence of freedom is exhibited as in the case of receiving the results of selected actions. This means that the individual soul has full freedom to do any action but once the action is selected, the individual soul has no trace of freedom to receive its destined results.

The freedom represents the newly added property and the absence of trace of freedom represents the inherent property derived from the cause. The freedom of the individual soul comes from the will of God because God alone has the freedom. Therefore, you need not doubt about the possibility of freedom coming from any factor or item of the world since the entire world is totally inert being completely controlled by God. The will of God brings the freedom from God since freedom is available in God only. Therefore, the individual soul is the best item of the creation as an inert item blessed by God with freedom.

God – Simile – Metaphor

God is compared with several great items in this creation. The comparison is always indicated by simile. But, when comparison is more stressed, the simile becomes metaphor. In simile, we say that he is like a lion. In metaphor we say that he is the lion. This does not mean that he is actually the lion, which is a wild animal. You may also say that the same person is the tiger. If he is actually the lion, he cannot be the tiger again. God is said to be the space (Akasha) in the sense that God is everywhere like the space.

By this, people thought that actually the space is God. God is again said to be the life-air (Prana) in the sense God is important for this world like life for the body. People thought that the air of respiration is actually the God and propagated that you should concentrate on the respirating air i.e., Dhyana on Swaasa. God is compared with fire in the sense that God destroys everything in the final stage. One religion propagates that the fire is actually God.

In the Brahma Sutras, we get several contexts (Adhikaranams) in which God is compared with several important items of the creation to stress on the various aspects of importance of God. One of such context is the individual soul, which is blessed with freedom by God. This does not mean that the individual soul is the actual God. This is one type of illusion. The other type of illusion is to treat God as the individual soul when He comes as the human incarnation. The human beings always have the reverse vision!

You have seen a rope and mistook it as a serpent. Your preacher advised you that the serpent you see is actually the rope. This statement of the Preacher can be interpreted in two ways. The correct way is that the serpent you see does not exist at all and only the rope really exists. The second way of misinterpretation is that the serpent is the rope and hence, you can catch any serpent and use it as a rope.

In the first correct way, there is existence of rope and non-existence of serpent. In the second false way, there is existence of rope and also simultaneous equal existence of serpent. Therefore, you must understand Shankara in the first context in which He said that the individual soul is God. Here, both absolute existence of God and non-absolute existence (relative existence) of the world including the individual soul are mentioned. You have taken this context as the second context in which the individual soul and God are simultaneously existent and now you say that the individual soul is God.

Before understanding the concept, the proper context must be decided. In the first context, God is existent and individual soul is non-existent. Here, when you say that individual soul is God, it means that individual soul does not exist and only God exists. Here, rope is existent and snake is non-existent. In the second context, God enters the world as human being and identifies Himself with that human being.
This human incarnation or God exists simultaneously with the ordinary human being. Here, God as individual soul and the outer individual soul simultaneously exist like rope and serpent. The absolute existence of God is viewed as the relative existence of the human being taken as medium by God since God identifies with that human being.

Due to this, God enters the field of relative existence of the world and is taken as any other human being as far as the existence is concerned. Hence, we can treat that the human incarnation taken as a human being and the outer human being co-exist equally in the same plane of existence. Here, you should not say that individual soul is God or snake is rope because both are equally existent and no two items of equal existence can become one. If you take the human incarnation as the internal unimaginable absolute God, the first context appears in which the absolute God is absolutely existent and the outer human being or even the own human medium along with all the world becomes absolutely non-existent (or relatively existent) and now the human being is God, which means that God alone is truth and everything other than God is unreal.

Go to the following website and read the divine knowledge from there,


-By Shri Datta Swami

www.universal-spirituality.org




Universal Spirituality for World Peace

in summary you want to earn heaven by good works, moral codes, civil duties etc.

The problem with that is that nobody can meet up to God's standard because God is Holy.
Only an imperfect God will accept imperfection a perfect God only accept perfection, however there is no human that I'd perfect, this is the reason God sent Jesus who was perfect to save imperfect humans.

Any one who recieve Jesus recieve eternal life because Jesus had paid the price.

I am inviting you to accept Jesus because everyone including you have sinned, you need Jesus righteousness.

True.
Alot of good people are in hell.

True

Ridiculous

Nice.
Worship songs do not have expiring date.

MaxInDHouse:
According to Jesus Christ of Nazareth Israel has been CONDEMNED! Matthew 21:43

What you don't understand is that the name "Israel" is not the real name Isaac gave his son Jacob it's God who gave Jacob that name so it's whoever is willing to do God's will that could be rightly called Israel not just the descendants of Jacob! Matthew 3:7-10

That nation condemned God's only begotten Son of whom it is written:

Whoever exercises faith in him is not to be judged. Whoever does not exercise faith has been judged already, because he has not exercised faith in the name of the only-begotten Son of God! John 3:18

That nation as a whole rejected God's only begotten Son {John 1:11-12} saying:

“Let his blood come upon us and upon our children.” Matthew 27:25

So whenever you read about Israel afterwards know that it's not referring to that nation but the organization of people practicing what Jesus taught {Romans 2:25-29} as for that nation their land has been condemned! Matthew 23:37-38

For your information 99% of that nation today don't believe in Jesus Christ whom Moses told their forefathers that they must listen to what he's coming to teach them! Deuteronomy 18:18-19

Thanks!

Did you read Romans 11? Paul said God has not cast out his people.

The question is has God cast out his people? Paul said God forbid.

Paul mentioned his nation, his tribe an the fact that he is the seed of Abraham.

This he buttresses to reaffirm that he his talking of the nation Israel.


Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

MaxInDHouse:
I've been noticing you for some time now and it seems you believe God still has something to do with the natural Jews.
Well if that's what you're expecting then let me tell you today that the nation of Israel has been "CONDEMNED" {Matthew 21:43} it's been replaced by another nation producing the fruitage of FAITH.

Why is this necessary?

God is not requesting perfection from imperfect humans making up that nation but for them to work together with the Christ when he comes {Deuteronomy 18:18-19} that is what Jesus told the man who has kept all the laws from his youth {Luke 18:18-23} so for the nation of Israel to slaughter the Messiah and say:

“Let his blood come upon us and upon our children.” Matthew 27:25

Jesus told them to cry for their children because the nation has lost the favour they're getting from God and the blessings God promised Abraham has been given to the few Jews who became the first century Christian congregation. That's why all the promises God made with that nation began fulfilling among the Christians (only) Act 2:39

So that nation has absolutely nothing to do with the promises of God today they've lost it all the day God's only begotten Son was killed in Jerusalem!

As for River Tigris it has a symbolic meaning in it's drying up.
In ancient Babylon (the center of pagan worship set up against pure worship) the waters was like a protection behind the walls of Babylon shielding the city from being attacked by enemy nations. Cyrus the Persian diverted the river and his army walked into Babylon on foot to capture the city.

What this mean in our day!

Babylon the Great {Revelations 17:5} means the world empire of false religions, the waters upon which she's seated mean people from all nations {Revelations 17:15} so just as Cyrus diverted all the waters of Tigris so that Babylon became vulnerable to attack Jesus the modern day Cyrus will divert all the people supporting that empire of false religions away from supporting it and then the world government (wild beast) will attack false religions and declare all religions banned! Revelations 17:16

Have you noticed how many people are turning against their religious organizations today? Most people are becoming atheists, some agnostics and still many freethinkers even the few remaining in the churches are doubting if there's anything worthwhile they're doing there.

This is the meaning of River Tigris drying up!

Israel has not being totally abandoned.

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

Yes it is a sin. It is a sin if the seed of the man is not your husband.

Somebody mentioned Mary. Mary conception was by the holy ghost. The seed was not of a man but of God.

As for Artificial sperms and eggs there is little or no chance it will ever be realizable.

Not everybody who claimed he has recieved Jesus as their true Lord and saviour has truly received christ.
Many just say it with their mouth but however it means nothing to them.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Some people recieve Jesus as their saviour from poverty, sickness, bad economy etc however this is not receiving christ.

Everyone who thinks he has receive christ must examine themselves if they truly are in christ or if it is just mere delusion.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

This verse make it clear that it is possible to decieve oneself to think he or she has received christ whereas they have not.


However, what is the test?

1 A person who is saved will detest sining and have a strong desire and love for holiness.

This detest for sin and desire for holiness is as a result of the new nature they received in Jesus, anyone who do not have this desire for holiness and hatred for sin means that he or she is not born again.
1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.


2. A desire and love for God, this means he or she love to keep the commandments of the Lord for the commandments of he Lord will no longer be a burden to him but a delight.


1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.


3.Love for fellow christian
1 John 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

One cannot be born of God and hate Christians it is not possible.


4.Desire to preach the gospel.

A person who is truly saved will be joyful to confess the Lord Jesus anywhere without shame or fear.

1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

5.Hatred for the world and its pride.

A truly saved person is kingdom minded he or she is no longer longing or purseing for earthly things instead he is kingdom minded.

1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

Have you ever evaluated yourself to see if truly you are in christ or you are just fooling yourself?

While it is not late now, examine yourself if you are truly in christ and if not, turn to the Lord in faith to save you from sin and condemnation and accept his gift for you.
Mind you the gift of God is eternal life, this life is about his righteousness, holiness, truth, peace, joy etc
Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Ilamina:
then it's what

by Grace, which can only be recieved when you acknowledge that you are a sinner unable to save yourself and then believe on the Lord Jesus christ as the one who died for your sins and is raised again for your justification confessing him, then you will be saved.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Ilamina:
as we work hard

We also wish

It is not by hard work either.

Definitely, a one world religion is coming.
This one world religion will unify all faith, whether orthodox, penticostal/ charismatic, evangelical, etc. The Roman catholicism don't call her self the mother church for nothing, the office of the pope is to unite all world religion.

Making heaven is not by wish.

There is just one way to heaven that is through faith in Jesus not good works or any other.

Kobojunkie:
Maybe I do not understand what you are getting at.

According to Jesus Christ, only those who believe in Him can avoid perishing in the grave...John 3 vs 16 - 21 - this is since He only gives eternal life to those who believe in Him and are born again as a result. This means that all those who remain unbelievers even after hearing of Jesus Christ will never get eternal life. They will never be born-again as a result, and so they will perish in the grave following God's judgment in Genesis 3 vs 19

This right here is a clear heresy.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Anyone who believes in Jesus is not condemned, he is not going to be Judged for his sins anymore. Those who are cast into the fires of hell are the condemned.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Matthew 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.


25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The sheep of christ are those that followed him, those he gave eternal life.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:


10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.


Jesus christ says there are two types of resurrection.

The resurrection of life and the resurrection of damnation.
Meaning those who are resurrected to damnation will not have everlasting life.

The life here means eternal life

kobojunkie is a satanic heretic beware of these anagents of satan. jesus, budatum and many like them are misleading people here


John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Wilgrea7:
No.. those are not the same questions. A human making a car knows it can kill people, not that it will. Let me explain.

It is similar, the fact is you know a car can kill! Why not just prevent the probability from happening by NOT making a car? So it is similar

We humans do NOT know the future. When we make a car, we don't know what the buyers will use it for. If they'll drive drunk or anything. We hope they don't. But we don't know.

humans could to a certain degree give a probable prediction of the future. You don't need to know the specific individual, why not just prevent any probability of an accident by NOT making a car that may kill people?

An all-knowing God, especially the one who is supposed to know the end from the beginning knows that the car WILL be bought by an alcoholic and knows that it WILL cause the death of innocent people, because said all-knowing God knows the future.

It was his choice to be drunk, God will not stop his choice by not creating him or other means. As for people dieing from the bad choice of others, it is all a result of a fallen world.

he chooses to go ahead with creating the car, or selling it to that particular person who he KNOWS is an alcoholic that WILL kill people, then he is partially responsible for their deaths.

If everyone is giving freewill to make choices, preventing some people from excercing their choices makes God to be unjust and God is not unjust, except there is another just reason for God to do so.

If he is qualified to have a car like every other person why should he be denied is right because of some thing he didn't do? You see that you made no point at all.

God in this case, as you've said, knew the end from the beginning. He knew Adam and eve would sin, and fall from grace. He knew his creation would develop a fault along the line, and still went ahead with it.

yes everyone must be given a fair opportunity to be with God even though some would fall what matters is that God justly provided that opportunity for them.
You keep repeating the same thing, yes God knows his creation will develop fault and that fault will show how great he is in terms of his love, Justice, wisdom etc.

I'm sorry.. So humanity's condition will not be permanent how??

If God didn't drive Adam and Eve from the garden they would have eaten from the tree of life and all hope of redemption lost because humanity will now be irredeemable. Right now everyone has a chance of restoration hence human condition is yet permanent, it will only be made permanent after the final judgment.

Also, why create something with a flaw that can be solved, rather than creating something that does not have or develop any flaws eventually. That brings his all-powerfulness into question

It does not bring God's almightiness into question. God can do all things does not mean he will do all things, infact God cannot lie. God Almightiness must be interpreted in light with his other qualities, and not taken out and misinterpreted

That flaw will make the creation to understand the creator better and hence make them truly perfect.

Yes God will at the end make a creation that cannot develop fault that is perfect in his own way. Remember, the creation exist for the purpose of the creator not the order way round. Humans are not machines or robot but are entities capable of having experience.

How exactly? That's like building a car, and saying the car's ability to break down in the middle of the road is part of it's perfection. And that's also not taking into account the fact that God knew about the flaws.. So it's more like creating a car that WILL break down on the road, and calling it perfect.

No like a man creating a make and brake fuse that brakes within a certain range. How can such device that brakes and plunge the house into darkness be perfect?
Perfection depends on the purpose of a thing, if you don't know the purpose it will not be perfect buy if you know it, then you know it is perfect.

I disagree. Using the car analogy. If i made a car that breaks down, or leaks fluid, or rather WILL leak fluid after exactly 10 days, and I say the car is perfect, would you agree with me? If not, then perfection is not only determined by the creator.

you can only say it is not perfect because it is not serving the purpose it is intended to serve.

Fishes are imperfect on land yet perfect in water, the perfection of something is in its purpose.

I'm not deciding for him. I'm asking why wait so long? That's the whole point of the thread. If he had sent Jesus immediately after adam and eve sinned, the sin could have been eliminated right there and then. And that's assuming the sacrifice worked.. something I will discuss later on.

Again you like a man that wants to teach a doctor how to treat his patient.

How can you say a drug didn't work when you rejected it?

But of course your God is all knowing. He knew when they sinned. He knew about the repulsive thing that is sin, which he hated so much. He knew about the infection. So why not treat it immediately?

God is a God of process. He could have made the world in less than a second yet he took seven days.
Before Jesus came alot of things were put in place, this things were to lead men to christ.

Let me give you a quick analogy. Someone you know has a disease, that makes them cough blood every 5 minutes. They take a drug that claims to heal them, but you still see them coughing blood days, weeks, or months after. Would you say because you didn't take the medicine, that you don't know if it worked?

what if the person did not take the drug?

Now, on to the efficacy of Christ's sacrifice. Most Christians agree that Adam and eve were in a sort of exalted state, and sinning made them fall from that state. It's referred to as the fall of man. So therefore, people who take the said treatment (A.K.A Jesus) should return to that exalted state. But I don't see it.

They will return not just back to the first Adam's state but far above it. God is a God of process, the most important thing is that those that are recieved christ are free from eternal damnation.

Let me further expatiate. Christians believe that before sin, there was no sickness, no sorrow, no hardship, etc. I won't focus on the things humans do to each other. I'll focus on the things nature does to us humans.

This is because the natural world is not yet saved, God is a God of process and order. Once God's people are all transformed they will appear on this natural world and set it free.

Sickness is a good example. If someone is truly saved, then they should return back to their adamite glory. If they don't, then what use is the remedy. If they do, then why do Christians fall sick? Why do they die of diseases just like everyone else? Why do they face hardships in life?

As at now only the Spirit of those who received christ has being transformed not their bodies, hence they still face challenges as other people.

These things are the by-products of sin, as we know it. So accepting the cure, means you should be free from ALL of these. But that doesn't seem to be the case. Why?

It will, at the appointed time.

I wasn't talking about the individual. I was talking about humanity as a whole. Adam and eve were supposed to be the only 2 humans at the time. They both sinned. That means 2 people got the virus of sin.

Now, the population increased, as did the sin. If you believe in original sin, then you believe that by virtue of the fall, we're all sinners. Meaning as new humans were born, they were born in sin. Now there are about 8 billion humans, all born in sin.

Redemption is an individual choice, redemption is not inherited by physical birth. Even if christ died immediately Adam and Eve sinned it still won't prevent sin from spreading.

You yourself said that simply saying the "Jesus I accept you" prayer doesn't cut it. There must be repentance. And anyone can look around and see, that by the christian concept, there is still A LOT of sin in the world today. So obviously, the plan for redemption, failed to achieve it's purpose.

People are still being born into that sinful nature, and people are still sinning, as a result of said nature. The majority of us still appear to be in our fallen state. That, is the definition of a failed solution.

Yeah there must be repentance, however this repentance is actually turning to the Lord, acknowledging your sinfulness and then accepting his offer to you. When you accept God's gift of salvation, you start living a righteous life just as God wanted. When you recieve God's gift you become a new creature in your spirit and when Jesus appears your outward being will be transformed too.

You are right that people are still sinning, but however, God is creating a new world that will be perfect without sin, now only those who recieve God's redemption now will be in it.

Though alot of people have not accepted God's gift, that door is still opening and people are made aware through preachers all over the world. Every day alot of people are taking God's offer.

Wilgrea7:
The all-knowing argument shoots itself in the foot quicker than you'd expect. Especially when you try to pair it with the concept of an all-powerful and perfect God.

No, it does not. Your question sound like why make a car when you know it could kill people?

An all knowing God would know that the creation he is about to make would have obvious faults. Him choosing to create a faulty creation calls his all-powerfulness into question, as well as the claim of him being perfect.

God didn't create a faulty creation.

That being said, my question still stands. Why would he make something he knew was going to be so flawed, while also hating said flaw, and doing nothing while the flaw increased exponentially?

Your question has being answered.
Simple, that is because the flaw could be solved.
Again you said God did nothing? God had literally planned out the solution before he started creation. Right there in the Garden of heathen God reveals his plan, he even drove them from the garden of Eden so that humanity's condition would not be permanent.

This still does not answer the question. Why create a flawed product, or a product which eventually becomes flawed, and administer one of the worst damage control measures known? Why not send Jesus sooner, like immediately after Adam and eve sinned? Or a generation or 2 later?

Again God never created a flawed product. What God created was perfect.
The ability to become flawed is part of the perfection of the creation.
Only the person who made a product can determine if it is perfect or not.
Again you or anyone else don't decide for God, Jesus came at the exact time the Father has set.

you had an infection, and you had the cure, would you wait till the infection consumed your entire body, or would you administer treatment immediately. Note that you find said infection utterly repulsive.

The person that is carrying the infection must be aware the infection before he or she can accept treatment. Sin must first of all be exposed before it can be dealt with.

And that's not even taking the effectiveness of Christ's alleged "sacrifice" into account. According to the christian doctrine, it takes far more to be saved than just saying a simple "Jesus i accept you" prayer. Living a holy life is also supposed to be there.

How will you know its effectiveness when you don't have it.
No one become save simply by saying Jesus I accept you. There must be repentance, this repentance is brought about through conviction.

Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Considering the state of the world today and since the beginning of civilization, you can clearly see that the redemption plan has not been effective in the slightest. That's why I gave the analogy of sending in a bucket of water when the entire house is about to collapse.

Would you also introduce a solution that only kills a small percentage of the infection, while still allowing the infection to multiply exponentially?

The redemptive plan has being effective, many people has being saved. I am example of the fruit of God's redemption.
God's solution does not kill only a percentage of sin but it removes it totally.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Wilgrea7:
Happy Sunday beautiful people

So I'll get straight to the point. Sin.

It's the one thing God can't stand. The one thing that goes against his nature so much, that an iota of it warrants him to burn you for all eternity. You get the drift.

How did sin come into this world? Well, through Adam and Eve of course. They ate a fruit and it pissed the big sky daddy off.

They had corrupted his perfect design and whatnot. And what does God do?

Being an all knowing God, who is supposed to know the end from the beginning.. he knew they would sin and still made them... But let's not dwell on that.

God is all knowing, yes that is why he ordained salvation for mankind even before they were made.
So the existence of sin does not stop God's purpose of creation because he has a redemption plan for it.

God also knew, that the very thing he hated, which was sin, would be multiplied millions of folds if Adam and Eve bore children. So what did he do?

A. Make Eve barren so sin stops then and there
B. Allow the population of the world, and the sin he so hates, to increase literally billions of folds, so he can send himself to get shanked on a cross a couple thousand years later.

Well.. the answer is unfortunately B. The Christian God seems to have one of the worst damage control measures known to humanity.

It's the equivalent of seeing a small fire in your kitchen, having the ability to put it out right there, but sitting idly by and letting the entire house catch on fire, only to send a bucket of water when the house is about to collapse.

If God hates sin so much, why didn't he get rid of it during the time of Adam and Eve? Why let the thing you hate so much multiply exponentially.. even though you had the power to stop it??

If you had an infection, would you let it consume your entire body before treating it?

If such an action makes absolutely no sense in the real world, then why does it make sense in your religion??

The multiplication of sin cannot stop God because he has the ultimate plan.

God would not stop Adam and Eve from procreating because he has a plan of redemption for them and their descendants.

Sin is not a problem with God because he had a perfect plan to not only destroy sin but to save his creation.