₦airaland Forum

viaro:
Is there any need to misrepresent people, KunleOshob? If that was supposed to be a reply to my recent post, it's amazing that the best you can do is confuse posters and say absolutely nothing about the subject itself.

My post was addressed to pilgrim.1 why should it bother you or respond on her behalf

Besides belief in Jesus could also be interpreted to mean belief in his gospel which was essentially Love to God and Love to fellow men whcu can be practicalized by living a good life. As you may be unaware there are a good number of translation errors in the bible which have vastly affected doctrine today.

JeSoul:
Kunle & Noetic,
 
I think John 3:16-18 would be a great launching point:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

But this holds true for only a certain group of people who got the chance to hear, and more importantly understand the gospel enough to either accept or reject it.

I am quite aware of the above passage and i never discounted it, what i was just trying to make Noetic see were other scriptures that said something that seemed contrary and i asked him to explain it if he truly understood what he believed in, up till now he has not been able to offer any explaination. He has chosen to remain in the dogmatic box his church has put him in instead of exploring other biblical truths on the issue. I don't claim to know it all, so i am open to knowledge, but i am not open to accept something just becos that is the aspect of the bible my pastor would rather preach to me when i see cntradicting evidence i would insist on clarification.

Yeah! they were not born equal but Jesus said the poor shall inherit the earth!!! And the so called rich would find it more difficult to enter the Kingdom of God than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle. Be care ful how you interprete scriptures. All men are equal b4 God.

@Tonye-t and other tithe preaching heretics.
2 Peter 2:1-3:
The Danger of False Teachers
1 But there were also false prophets in Israel, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly teach destructive heresies and even deny the Master who bought them. In this way, they will bring sudden destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their evil teaching and shameful immorality. And because of these teachers, the way of truth will be slandered. 3 In their greed they will make up clever lies to get hold of your money. But God condemned them long ago, and their destruction will not be delayed.

I can't think of a better example of clever lie than the jewish tithes, first fruit and seed sowing twisted from old testament scripture and adapted for exploitation in the mordern church.

Titus 1:11:
11 They [false teachers]must be silenced, because they are turning whole families away from the truth by their false teaching. And they do it only for money.

Modern day tithing is a perfect example of false teaching the writer was talking about.

Better still it would be better you start this thread with quoting the basis for your beliefs from scripture so we can annalyze it together and contrast it with other scriptures that seem to be saying something different from what you believe.

@Noetic
if i do re-call i have not made any categorical statement on that submission as i do not claim to know it all and i am still learning, however what i did was to show you biblical evidence [ which you are yet to refute or explain] that suggests other wise. I would suggestyou go and answer the question posed to you on the previous thread instead of running away and now trying to put us on the spot. you should justify your assertions before askng me to 'prove' my objections to it. I haven't made personal statements yet, just biblical submissions and as you claim to believe in the in errancy of the bible then you must accept the submissions or throw better light on it if it was being quoted out of context or there is another understanding which we are missing in the scriptures quoted.

Pilgrim.1, you are not satisfied with all the heresies you preached on tithing now you want to extend it to first fruit and manipulate scriptures to suit the agenda again, don't you ever get tired

mazaje:
Are you sure about this? In his very popular debate with willam craig he clearly said that he does not believe in the divinity of jesus. . . you can look it up on youtube(Barth Erhman debates William Lane Criag)

You may be right that he does not believe in Jesus divinity however from his interviews i have heard from he holds Jesus in very high esteem and someone with divine knowledge. His problem with christianity is that he believes that the bible has been corrupted by the early christian scribes, thus we don't have an accurate version of the scriptures with us any more cause the original manuscripts are now missing.

Pastor AIO:
Even with one testicle.

mazaje:
It is my understanding that Barth Erhman does not believe in any god so whay should he make such a claim? It might be that he was just throwing a suggestion out there and you misinterpreted it to mean something else. . . . .

You are very wrong here bart erhman is a bible scholar even though he is also a bible critique. What he did was to abandon mainstream christianity becos of the inconsistensies he perceived both in doctrines and texts that make up the bible. He has never denied the existience of God or the divinity of Jesus. For more on him you can chrck here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bart_D._Ehrman

@Jagunlabi/ deepsight
I once wacthed an interview by bart erhman [A renowned Theologian and new testament critique] in which he claimed that the God who created life on earth is different from the God who created the universe and he actually tried to justify it from scripture even though i don't remember the scriptures he quoted any more. I would like to know your opinions on this postulations.

Pastor AIO:
Warning! Men of God stop abusing little children. They are not witches the problem is that you are paranoid schizophrenics that see evil and fear around every corner.

@deepsight
I crave your indulgence to drop another 'morsel' for Noetic to explain better to us.

@Noetic
Could you explain the below better within the salvation context.

Revelation 20:11-13:
The Final Judgment
11 And I saw a great white throne and the one sitting on it. The earth and sky fled from his presence, but they found no place to hide. 12 I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds.

Deep Sight:
@ Kunle Oshob -

On the contrary, i believe Pastor's quotes did perfect and deep-lining justice to your request. It shows exactly where "salvation" rests - within.

Pastor, eku ise gaan o. That was sensationally apt.

Well maybe what i had in mind was a comparison/ contrast to popular church doctrine since it is from a book rejected by the "church"

Well it is a perfectly normal business practise to collect loans to finance the expansion of business enterprises.

Jagun, you wan start your wahala again abi!!!!!!
The truth is that man cannever really know God in this life. Various religions have tried to put God in a box they can understand but i believe God is way beyond our comprehension. It is my opinion that a lot of things we hold dear and express as worship are Just man's way of glorifying the almighty. And some of these practises found there way into scripture and presented as God's word by overzealous priests. The same still goes on today where men still continue to present there words as the "word of God" claiming God spoke to them by revelation. This is still very common in the pentcostal fold.

mmmh pastor, very thought provoking posts but not necessarily precise, i would prefer an answer within the salvation context being preached in churches today or better still what relevance it has to making 'heaven' or the Kingdom of God.

chukwudi44:
Do you mind telling me any pentecostal church that does not preach mandatory tithing?

Am yet to see one at least here in Nigeria where I live

The reason why at least 90% of these pentecostal churches are established is becos of the tithes, offerings and seed sowing they covet from members of the church.

Pastor AIO:
OMG! I've just gone and read through Viaro's submissions and his style is remarkably like Pilgrim.1's. However he denies being her, or even being a woman.


But let me hasten to remark that I did not mention any names in the above post. So if Pilgrim is still knocking about in a different guise I just want to commot hand from any finger pointing.

You had better else you would be guilty of commiting hubris.

The gospel of Judas suggests that Judas is a hero and he was carrying out Jesus instructions when he "betrayed" him. Personally i think there is some inconsistency in church beliefs if we villify Judas for facillitating the death of christ which we believe is meant for our salvation.

@pastor
I asked for your opinion on the meaning of a statement creditted to Jesus in the gospel of Thomas, i would repeat it here, could you kindly give an insight into it? Krayola your views would also be highly appreciated.

These are the secret sayings that the living Jesus spoke and Didymos Judas Thomas recorded.

1. And he said, "Whoever discovers the interpretation of these sayings will not taste death."

2. Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you.

Kindly let me know your understanding of the above scripture. Thanx.

Krayola:
haha. oya no vex Kunleoshob.

Persecution was not a universal policy before constantine. Some emperors were not going after christians. Nero and I think Diocletan were the main ones, but most of the rest mainly persecuted christians when they where reported as being rebellious.

Lesson noted i am sure we have a lot to learn from you since youare more of a professional in this terrain.

@Pastor
Thanx, i would sheath my sword but not before mentioning that krayola tried to distort historical facts by saying just one part of the story and ignoring the other part which speaks even more volumes on early christianity.

mantraa:
The chinese astronomers of the time, around 4bc, recorded a supernova where a star exploded and could be seen in the day and night for weeks before the light dissipated. From Isreal it would have appeared to be above the eastern horizon. This event could explain the guiding star over bethlehem. Most astronomical events were considered to be a sign from god, such as eclipses of the sun and moon where "the day shall be turned to night and the moon shall be turned to blood" etc.

I think that ufos are just that, UNIDENTIFIED flying objects. Just because something is unidentified does not mean that it has to extraterrestrial. Ever wondered why most of these are sighted in the vicinity of secret military bases in the desert where top secret flying objects are tested? There are also a lot of strange atmospheric phenomena which are still just being discovered and understood such as ball lightning and sprites. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_lightning http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprites_%28lightning%29

The extent these atheists would go to try and dis-credit biblical facts Is there any semblance between your ball lightings and the star of bethlehem

Krayola:
Noetic your post makes no sense.

Are you aware that most of these illiterate early Christians became Christians because some Theodosius dude decided to make it the official religion of some empire. And that all it took to become a Christian was to say a creed and be baptized, and to refuse was to suffer, burn, be incarcerated, die. . ? You think the "spirit" convinced these people about the contents of some book they never read, while some guy was waiting to light their asses on fire should they refuse?

Just admit u don't have all the answers. Maybe God does, but your attempts aren't doing him much justice.,

Contrary to the fables you posted above, the early christians were persecuted and they demonstrated extreme levels of faith that the average christian today cannot even dream of. It is a historical fact that the christians were persecuted in the roman empire before constantine accepted christianity around the year AD320 and made it the official religion of the empire there after. Prior to that for almost three hundred years christianity had thrived as an "illegal" religion and it was practised at a great risk to the life of the beleivers. Several of them lost there lives becos of their faith in christ Jesus. So it is very wrong to claim that the early christians were forced to accept christianity. They did so purely by faith and they practised the purest form of christianity contrary too what we practise today. They understood the true gospel and you deed not need to be literate to understand i becos of it's simplicity, unfortunately centuries later due to various pulls and pushes of indoctrination by various men and various reasons christianity today is vastly different from that which was established by the apostles.

Pastor AIO:
I just want to say in defence of Noetic that I don't think that the pride is inherent, but rather it has come from without and infected him. It is a pattern common amongst religionists (those whose faith is based on intellectual postulations, no matter how shaky). His own is even small. I recall a girl a while back who would rebut whatever was put to her with a cry of 'Hubris'! 'Hubris!!', she would scream at any one that dared to voice a contrary opinion. I thought that Hubris described the act of challenging the Gods. I checked my dictionary again and that was one of the meanings. It was either that woman didn't really know the meaning of hubris or she was equating herself to God. That's how far it can go.
The problems isn't with her and neither is it with Noetic but rather the religionism that they've immersed themselves in. It leads to intellectual pride that cannot bear debate.

Pastor are you trying to blasphem against my darling Pilgrim.1 viaro Or don't you know she is infallible Please note that we will not take kindly to any utterances against her on this forum else you offend the gods.

Unfortunately the mordern church has completely lost focus and have departed from the true gospel of christ. What is being preached today and going on in most of our churches has no semblance to he Gospel Jesus preached and it's rather unfortunate becos this man made version of the gospel being propagated has no real spiritual depth. As a result of this twisted gospel, churches today are actually succeeding [in an era of knowledge] in drving more people away from God [into Atheism and the likes] than it is succeeding in turning people to christ.

This is really an exemplary and christian like move on the part of Noetic which i believe other nairalanders should emulate becos i believe a good number of us have been guilty of personal attacks in the past on this forum. I beleive it is caused by the sensitve nature of our belief systems. One tends to feel personally offended when ones belief system is being criticized or attacked. Personally i have also been guilty of personal attacks but i never started out that way. I initially made a concious attempt to avoid personalizing issues on this forum but eventually when my person was constantly attacked and insulted becos of my very strong views on certain issues i joined the bandwagon and started getting personal in my submissions. In the spirit of reconcilation on this thread i would also like to tender my unreserved apologies to all those i might have insulted i the past [Including those who felt offended becos i insulted their pastors/G.Os/Bishops e.t.c] However i must mention that my views remained unchanged as far as mordern practise of christianity is concerned. I just want to encourage us all to put across our views without us personalizing issues and we would have much healthier debates that way.

OLAADEGBU:
A new convert confessed of his hesitancy in taking wine. He said, "The wine goes straight to me head."

He then became nervous about taking the Holy Communion because even a sip of wine would make him see double.

At the end of the service, he was heard telling the pastor that his fears had been unfounded.

The pastor enquired what had happened, the new convert replied, "This time it went straight to my heart."

Tales by moon light!!!

Are you thinking of marrying one?

@Noetic
My answer can be found in James 1:27 which says : Pure and undefiled religion [worship] in the sight of God is to take care of widows and orphans in their affliction and to keep your self from being corrupted by the world.

Now let's have your answer and stop answering questions with questions.